Rapture: hocus-pocus

[Ed Edwards]

Postrib: "The scriptures nowhere refer to a church age, but instead say that the church will continue throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21). The church is made up of all believers of all time, whether Jewish or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13), for there's only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23)."

This is exactly true. Amen, Brother preach the
part except that the Scripture doesn't refer.

However, you make it extremely difficult to have a conversation
by insisting that i use only terms that are found in
the Bible to answer questions were the answer is NOT found
in the Bible. How can you always extrapolate using only
termonology found in the Bible?

The Bible never mentions velcro, do you deny velcro exits
and is good for holding things together?

Anyway, having to define everything everytime one uses it
makes for extremely long posts. Then we have have our
Brothers that get confused easily that want everything to
be simple, simple. Sorry, life isn't always simple.
I look in my dictionary and find a dozen meanings for
a "simple" term like "day". And I even know of a day
that isn't in the dictionary: the 48-hour day that got
overlooked by the dictionary makers. Yep, a 24-hour day
like 3 April 2004 lasts 48 hours somewhere upon the earth.
And don't forget (you in the USofA) to spring your clock
forward when you go to bed tonight. This makes 4 April 2004
a 23-hour day

 

[wopik]

Ed Edwards,

The church is made up of all believers of all time, whether Jewish or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13), for there's only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23)."


Salvation and Christianity are open to Jews and all Israelites. The gospel "is the power of GOD UNTO SALVATION to every one that believes; TO THE JEW FIRST, and also the Greek" (Rom. 1:16).

So then the Jew can be a converted CHRISTIAN! Indeed, the Church at the beginning was nearly altogether Jewish! So the JEW, even though a Christian in God's CHURCH, is BOUND to keep God's Sabbath as a perpetual covenant, throughout his generations, FOREVER! (Exodus 31:16).

Now, does God have TWO KINDS of Christians? Is it SIN for a Jewish Christian to break the Sabbath, and sin for all others to KEEP it? Must Jewish Christians assemble on the Sabbath, and those of other nationalities on Sunday? Didn't Jesus say a house divided against itself would fall?

Are there TWO KINDS of Christians? Read Galatians 3:28-29: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS. And if you [Gentiles] be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

So, since the Sabbath is BINDING TODAY on the Jewish part of God's Church, and there is no difference - we are all ONE in Christ - it is also binding on Gentiles!

 

[R. Charles Blair]

Brother Ed - Sorry if Matt. 11:20-24 & 12:38-42, with John 5:25-29 "goaded" you - but it is hard to kick against the goads!

By the way - I have to work for a living too - I have three "half-time" jobs, including serving as pastor of a small congregation, in "semi-retirement."

Wishing you His best - Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

[postrib]

Greetings in Jesus' name,

From the post in this thread made on April 03, 2004 09:24 AM:
". . . insisting that i use only terms that are found in the Bible . . . "

While some terms that we commonly use, like "rapture" or "trinity," aren't found in the Bible but the ideas which they indicate are, neither the term "church age" nor the idea which it indicates is found in the Bible, for the church will continue throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21).

The Christians who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be members of the church, for they (like other Christians) will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13). Just as most pre-tribbers agree that Matthew 24:36-51 is written for the church, so Matthew 24:3-35 is written for the church. Jesus is addressing the same church, the same "ye" in Matthew 24:44 ("be ye also ready") that He's addressing in Matthew 24:15 ("ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation") and He's referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" in Matthew 24:36-51 that He's referring to in Matthew 24:3-35, "immediately after the tribulation." There's no third coming of Christ or second rapture of the church.

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by postrib:
Greetings in Jesus' name,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> From the post in this thread made on April 03, 2004 09:24 AM:
". . . insisting that i use only terms that are found in the Bible . . . "

While some terms that we commonly use, like "rapture" or "trinity," aren't found in the Bible but the ideas which they indicate are, neither the term "church age" nor the idea which it indicates is found in the Bible, for the church will continue throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21). </font>[/QUOTE]I.E. Postrib gets to
choose which words we can use?
Sorry, i'm not buying that.
------------------------------------
These are what i'm calling "the church age":

Mt 12:32 (nKJV):
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man,
it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks
against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven
him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mt 13:39 (nKJV):
The enemy who sowed them is the devil,
the harvest is the end of the age,
and the reapers are the angels.

Mt 13:40 (nKJV):
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned
in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

Mt 13:49 (nKJV):
So it will be at the end of the age.
The angels will come forth, separate the
wicked from among the just,

Mt 24:3 (nKJV):
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives,
the disciples came to Him privately, saying,
"Tell us, when will these things be?
And what will be the sign of Your coming,
and of the end of the age?"

Mt 28:20 (nKJV):
teaching them to observe all things that I have
commanded you; and lo, I am with you always,
even to the end of the age." Amen.

Mr 10:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive a hundredfold now
in this time--houses and brothers and sisters
and mothers and children and lands,
with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.

Lu 18:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive many times more in this present time,
and in the age to come eternal life."

Lu 20:34-35 (nKJV):
And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age
marry and are given in marriage.
But those who are counted worthy to attain that age,
and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry
nor are given in marriage;

1Co 1:20 (nKJV):
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the
disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish
the wisdom of this world?

1Co 2:6 (nKJV):
However, we speak wisdom among those who
are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age,
nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

1Co 2:8 (nKJV):
which none of the rulers ofthis age knew;
for had they known, they would not have crucified
the Lord of glory.


1Co 3:18 (nKJV):
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems
to be wise in this age, let him become a fool
that he may become wise.

2Co 4:4 (nKJV):
whose minds the god of this age has blinded,
who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel
of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God,
should shine on them.

Ga 1:4 (nKJV):
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver
us from this present evil age,
according to the will of our God and Father,

Eph 1:21 (nKJV):
far above all principality and power and might
and dominion, and every name that is named,
not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

Eph 6:12 (nKJV):
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

1Ti 6:17 (nKJV):
Command those who are rich in this present age
not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain
riches but in the living God, who gives us
richly all things to enjoy.

Tit 2:12 (nKJV):
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and
worldly lusts, we should live soberly,
righteously, and godly in the present age,


Gentile Age:

Luke 21:24 (nKJV):
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword,
and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles
until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

This excerpt from the Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD)
parallels Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
All are the MOD speaking of Jesus, when
He predicted what would happen in the future.
--------------------------------------
So i'm in great company, the age
which 8i call the "church age" is in the Bible.

This is also being discussed in a parallel
topic:

Saved during tribulation?

Here is some more on "age" in the Bible:

---------------------------
"AGE" in the New King James Version (nKJV).

The KJV tends to confuse the Greek "aeon" /age/ and
Greek "cosmos" /world/ and calles them both "world".
So i'll use the nKJV for my word study on "age".
References to how old someone is (AKA: "age") have been eliminated.


Mt 12:32 (nKJV):
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man,
it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit,
it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mt 13:39 (nKJV):
The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest
is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

*souls shall be harvested at the end of this age

Mt 13:40 (nKJV):
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,
so it will be at the end of this age.

Mt 13:49 (nKJV):
So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come
forth, separate the wicked from among the just,

Mt 24:3 (nKJV):
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came
to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be?
And what will be the sign of Your coming,
and of the end of the age?"

Mt 28:20 (nKJV):
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

*Jesus is with us completely to the end of the age.
*the age has an end

Mr 10:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time--houses
and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands,
with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.

*people will have eternal life, in the age to come

Lu 18:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive many times more in this present time,
and in the age to come eternal life."

Lu 20:34-35 (nKJV):
34. And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry
and are given in marriage.
35. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age,
and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

*there is a future age when marriage is NOT, after resurrection from the dead

1Co 1:20 (nKJV):
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer
of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

*this age has a disputer

1Co 2:6 (nKJV):
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature,
yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age,
who are coming to nothing.

*the wisdom of this age will come to nothing
*the rules of this age will come to nothing

1Co 2:8 (nKJV):
which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1Co 3:18 (nKJV):
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems
to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.

2Co 4:4 (nKJV):
whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe,
lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,
who is the image of God, should shine on them.

*the god of this age is NOT Jesus, the Christ

Ga 1:4 (nKJV):
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver
us from this present evil age, according to the will
of our God and Father,

*this age is evil

Eph 1:21 (nKJV):
far above all principality and power and might and dominion,
and every name that is named, not only in this age
but also in that which is to come.

*there is an age to follow this age

Eph 6:12 (nKJV):
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

* this age is dark

1Ti 6:17 (nKJV):
Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty,
nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives
us richly all things to enjoy.

* this age has rich people in it

Tit 2:12 (nKJV):
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

Heb 6:5 (nKJV):
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

This great section on the Security of the Believer
speaks of an "age to come".
* there will be "good ... powers" in the age to come.
-------------------

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I'm back.

I realized premill have lot of problems with the Bible. Amill doctrine makes many good points from the Bible. I want to make chart on the comparing between "This Age" & "The Age to come" with verses.

THIS AGE

Matthew 12:32 - There is no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in this present age

Matthew 13:29-30a - Both believers and unbelievers are growing together in the world in this present age

Matthew 24:3- These signs are happening in this present age

Matthew 28:19,20 - The gospel is continue spreading over the world in this present age.

Mark 10:30- built houses, work in the fields, and having families in this present age

Luke 18:30 - receiving material rewards of this present age

Luke 20:34 - people are marrying and produce more children in this present age

Romans 12:2 - We are commanded, not to compromise with this present world

1 Corinthians 1:20 - men's own philosophy of this present age

1 Corinthians 2:6-8 - rulers, philosphers of this present age

2 Corinthians 4:4 - Satan is the god of this present age, blinds people from the truth

Galatians 1:4 - wicked of present age

Ephesians 1:20-21 - Christ reigns in this present age

Ephesians 2:2 - we are commanded to walk godly in this evil present age

1 Timothy 6:17 - materialism of this present age

Titus 2:12 - we are commanded to walk godly in this present age.

THE AGE TO COME

Matthew 12:32 - there is no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in the next age

Matthew 13:30,40 - Unbelievers shall be separate from the believers at the end of this age

Matthew 24:29-30 - this present age shall be end when Christ comes with his angels

Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30 - Eternal life is a reward

Luke 20:35*** There will be NO marriage and no more produce children in the next age to come

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - unbelievers shall not enter the eternality kingdom

1 Corinthians 15:50 - Flesh and blood will not enter the eternality kingdom

Galatians 5:21 Those who remain in wicked living will not enter eternality kingdom

Ephesians 1:21 - Christ will continue reign in the next age to come

1 Thessalonians 2:12 - we are commanded to walking godly worthy for have eternal life in the next age to come

2 Thessalonians 1:5 - we are walking godly worthy for have eternal life in the next age to come

1 Timothy 6:19 - our spiritual things are being restore for eternality kingdom

2 Timothy 4:18 - Our Lord shall bring us to eternality kingdom


The Bible is very clear teach us, there is only TWO Ages. "This age" means, present time. It is a temporality, it will not be last long. All things on earth will be pass away at the second advent. "The age to come" is the next age at the second advent. It is not a temporality, it is eternality.

If suppose premill doctrine is correct. Then, that mean, they teach, there will be 1000 years after the second advent. Then, it is a temporality.

That mean there will be the next two ages yet to come. HUH??? The Bible does not saying it. The Bible teaches us, the next age will be eternality at the second advent.

Dispensationalism teaches there are 7 different times. But the Bible teaches us, there are only 2 ages in God's plan. First age starts from Adam at creation till the second advent. Then, the next age will be eternality begins right after the second advent.

The reason why I believe in Amillennialism is...

The Bible teaches us about the concerning the END OF THE AGE/WORLD requires it.

The Bible tells us about the end of the age/world

Matthew 13:24-30 "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, NAY lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. LET BOTH GROW TOGETHER UNTILLLLLLL THE HARVEST: and in the TIME of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

Christ tells us, both unbelievers(tares) and believers(wheat) are growing together in the world right now, unbelievers cannot separate from believers TILL the gathering come that will be at the end of the world.

Matthew 13:37-43 "He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; THE HARVEST IS THE END OF THE AGE/WORLD; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, SO SHALL IT BE IN THE END OF THIS AGE/WORLD. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Christ tells us, when Christ shall come with his angels AT THE END OF THIS AGE, the angels shall gather all unbelievers and cast them into eternality fire.

Matthew 13:47-50 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. SO SHALL IT BE AT THE END OF THE AGE/WORLD: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from amnong the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Christ tells us, when Christ shall come with his angels at the end of this age, he shall send his angels to gather all unbelievers, aned separate from from the believers, cast them into eternality fire. That will be at Lord's coming, not 1000 years later after his coming.

The context of Matthew chapter 13 does not mentioned 'a thousand years'. Christ teaches us, all unbelievers shall be cast away into eternality fire in that judgment day at his coming.

My highly recommend you to read that book - "A Case for Amillennialism" by Kim Riddlebarger. I brought that book last year at the Christian bookstore. It is VERY EXCELLENCE! I read that book is my very first book to read on Amillennialism. I have so many books on the shelves in my library are premillennialism. That book is so very simple and clear. I urge you to order it. Type - www.armageddon.com you will able to find it by click, 'millennial' or, 'millennium'. You will notice that book. You can order it through that site.

Bible teaches us very clear there is only two ages. Right now, we are in THIS age. This age will come to end WHEN Christ shall come with his angels, that is at Lord's coming. That is so simple and clear.

Accept what the Bible saying, believe what the Bible saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[brumleyj]

i argee with you deafposttrib 100 percent. yes bible tell us only two ages. we are still living this present age right now next age will come soon after second advent.

i notice that premill have lot of problem with matthew 13,isaiah 64,65, zechariah 14 and Isaiah 24,25,26 and rev 20, 2peter3:10-14.

why not answer a question to deafposttrib??

brumleyj
ps27:1
amem

 

[Ed Edwards]

As for the "two age" theory try the Bible:

AGES in the KJV1769:

Eph 2:7 (KJV1769):
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches
of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

There will be ages after this age.

Eph 3:5 (KJV1769):
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph 3:21 (KJV1769):
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages,
world without end. Amen.

Col 1:26 (KJV1769):
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages
and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

There were ages before this age.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by brumleyj:
i notice that premill have lot of problem with matthew 13,isaiah 64,65, zechariah 14 and Isaiah 24,25,26 and rev 20, 2peter3:10-14.

I notice amill have a lot
of problems with Scripture, reality,
and no little fingers with which to shift

 

[Ed Edwards]

No scripture has been given that shows the
eternal Kingdom of God and
the next are are the same.
In fact, the next age is the physcial Millinnial
Kingdom when physical Messiah Yeshua will rule
a physcial World on the
physical Throne of David in a physical Jerusalem.

The main error i see here is to simplify God's Plan
for the 3 kingdoms into one and only one kingdom.

1. The Kingdom of God within the saved; now; temporal
2. The physical Millininial Kingdom of God for
the saved; future; temporal
3. The Eternal Kingdom of God for the saved: now & future;
eternal

Ephesians 4:4-6 (HCSB):

There is one body
and one Spirit,
just as you were called to one hope at your calling;
5 one Lord,
one faith,
one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all,
who is above all and through all and in all.

But some would ADD to the scripture and say things like:

one Bible in English
one age now, one age future
one Kingdom of God

Why ADD to the Scripture?
Why Limit God?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
I'm back.

Good to see you, Dear Brother DeafPosttrib. I pray you are having
good success; i hope you are not overworking.

DPT: "The Bible is very clear teach us,
there is only TWO ages."
This is an oversimplification.
Like Forest Gump said when he was asked:
//name two days that start with "T"// --
Foret Gump said: "Today and Tomorrow".

DPT: //"The age to come" is the next age at
the second advent. it is not a temporality, it
is eternality. //

I don't buy your assumption.
You know we don't agree on definitions:
my "second advent" is different from yours;
my "age" is different from yours;
we probably don't even agree on "temporality"
and "eternality"

Would you use the parable of the net
(Matthew 13:27-43) as a guide for fishing?
(Bro. brumleyj: this is a retorical question,
the answer is "NO" and need not be stated
by anybody. The answer is implied in the
question.) No, you wouldn't use the
parable of the net (Matthew 13:37-43)
as a guide for fishing. Nor should one
use it to provide an eschatological time-line.

Yes, the harvesting of the evil is done
at the same time as the harvesting of the good.
This is the order mentioned, not the
implied order that events will go down.
Again, i believe both the good and the evil
will be harvested at the last day,
the Day of Christ, the Day of the Lord,
the 7-year/one "7" of Daniel/year-week/day.

I now see the willingless of some amills
to take 2 Peter 3:10 and use it to
abandon Revelation 20; to take the parable of the net (Matthew 13:27-43) as an excuse
to not believe Revelation 20.
Come on, Revelation 20 is literal and
to happen in the future.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Eph. 2:7 speaks of the time will come to fulfilled the Old Testament prophecy, as God make manifest us of the Calvary in Christ's rich and grace toward us.

Eph. 3:5 same as Eph. 2:7. Eph. 3:5 tells us, during Old Testament times, the prophecies of Christ were mystery to people, because Christ was the figure and shadow (Col. 2:17 & Heb. 8:5), but NOW it mansifest to the apostles, that the mystery of Christ is fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament through Calvary.

Eph. 3:21 tells us, Christ always be glory in the church through all the times from the beginning(creation) to now and forever and ever without end. Even, Christ was glory with Old Testament saints, and now he is still glory toward us today and remain forever and ever.

Jesus Christ IS an eternality. He have no beginning and no end - Rev. 1:8

Col. 1:26 tells the same as Eph. 3:5. Col. 1:26 tells us, during in the Old Testament times. people do not understand the mystery of the shadows of Jesus Christ. Till Christ came to earth, God made manifest us through Calvary, now we understand the mystery of Calvary fulfilled Old Testament prophecies.

Col. 1:25-27 is refer to Eph. 3:4-9. Notice, Eph. 2:7 is SAME as Col. 1:27.

You trying to prove us, there is ageS to prove there is more than just two ages.

You have to understand what the sentence of the verses talking about.

These verses talking about the mystery of Christ, it was hid since creation, these are prophecies and shadows of Jesus Christ - Col. 2:17 & Heb. 8:5 to the O.T. saints. But, NOW God made manifest to us by the Calvary to fulfilled O.T. prophecies, that we can understand the mystery of Christ. Christ's grace and riches toward us - Eph. 2:7 & Col. 1:27.

I hope you understand what Apostle Paul talking about, as he emphasis on Calvary.

You say,

I now see the willingless of some amills to take 2 Peter 3:10 and use it to abandon Revelation 20.

No, not true.

Amill don't ignore Revelation 20. Amill agrees with Revelation chapter 20 100%.

Understand, 2 Peter 3:10 is not same as Revelation 20, as mostly premill doing that.

2 Peter 3:10-13 tell us, old heavens and old earth shall be burned away by follow at the second coming of Christ, not suppose a thousand years later after his coming.

Later, I will start new topic about Revelation 20, not know when, possible next week. I will discuss about 'a thousand years' with verses.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[David Hill]

In general the Lord mentions "This Age" concerning this fallen world under the dominion of satan and "The Age To Come" when Y'shua sets up his reign.

However, as the Rabbim taught and Peter confirmed, this entails 7 of the Lords Days. Of those 7 thousand years, every 2 thousand saw a change in Stewardship. Antediluvial, Israelite and Christian.

According to Paul the Church is "engrafted into the commonwealth of Israel" which most Baptists don't understand, and thus could be considered "one Church" however it is obvious from the pouring out of the Spirit that there was a change in stewardship then.

Further, one said above that "the church age is not found in the old testament" and I beg to differ. It is found in the fourth chapter of Daniel where Neba was Insane for "seven times" which pictured the church age when he would be covered with "the dews of heaven" which Benjamin Keach ("Preaching from types and metaphors of the Bible") states is refering to the preaching of the Gospel.

Thus, in that chapter the "Watcher and Holy One" who came down from heaven was refering to John the Baptist and Y'shua respectively which is why John said, "even now is the ax laid unto the stump of the tree" for in Daniel 4 the Babylonian World Tree is cut down and the stump remains and a RESTRAINING BAND is put around the stump to keep it from regrowing. This restraining band represents the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit through the Church - Salt which restrains decay and Light which restrains the darkness.

Thus, at the pretrib rapture of the Church (which springs shut on the world like a snare - per Y'shua), the restraining band is cut off and the babylonian world tree will burst fourth on the world scene again - very soon from now I might add.

Thus, the Church age IS seen in the old testament, and I have much more about this and other subjects on my site (http://www.geocities.com/jesterbr549/index.html).

The word Hell is not in the Bible either but we know it exists therefore, this is just a semantic game for the word translated as "caught up" is to be "raptured" isn't it.

As far as pretrib, King David said, "My soul waits on the Lord more than they that watch for the morning, I say, even more than they that watch for the morning." The Morning is the Return as Peter makes clear ("until the dayspring arise in your heart") therefore, midtrib, prewrath, posttrib etc ALL WAIT FOR THE MORNING or the Return, however King David waited MORE THAN THEY DID, which is the PreTrib view - "I will give him the Morning Star" which rises about a half hour before the Sun does.

Other mistakenly believe that "The Kingdom is within you" and claim some type of spiritual kingdom. However, Y'shua said those words to the people who were trying to kill him and who obviously didn't have the spirit dwelling in them, thus the understanding must be refering to the fact that as long as the king was "among them" then so was the Kingdom, but when he was gone, so too was the Kingdom. The word "among you" is a possible translation of the word and is obviously the correct one.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit as spelled out by the New Covenant in Jer 30 IS NOT THE KINGDOM BUT A DOWNPAYMENT OF THE KINGDOM. To mistake the two is really, a cause of sorrow and wonder, for if the Kingdom was here, everyone would know it.

And, one more thing - Does a Woman know when her Labour Pains begin? Obviously she does. Y'shua called the first half of the trib "the beginning of sorrows" or the beginning of the birth pains. In other words, WHEN THE TRIBULATION BEGINS THE ENTIRE WORLD WILL KNOW, and that pretty much shoots down the preterist view. Not to mention the fact that John wrote his epistles (1-3) AFTER 70 AD and he still looked for the Return proving that the Lord did not return in 70 ad.

Ye do greatly err, not knowing the Scriptures...

 

[DeafPosttrib]

David Hill,

I respect you what you interpreting of Daniel chapter 4 - 'seven times'. In your view of 'seven times' represent seven church ages because of Revelation chapter 2 and 3 saying so.

C.I. Scofield taught on Revelation chapter 2 and 3 , that these are the seven church ages.

Revelation chapter 2 and 3 speak of every individuals throughout all ages, that Christ knows our strengeth, weakeness and our works are. Even also about our characters too. There is no hint of what year of the seven church ages are.

Understand number seven is God's favorite number, also, it means, completetion or perfection.

Dan. 4:16, 23,25, & 32 do not prove seven church ages. We have to be careful when we reading and interpreting what these are talking about. Remeber these are vision.

These are lot of figurative meanings.

Dan. 4:16 speaks of the individual's heart, individual have to be repented, and to be completed in Christ.

Dan. 4:23 explains in its context of verse 22-25 speak of how power Lord is. 'Seven times pass over him;' don't mean there is seven ages or seven church ages. It shows that these are completed in the Lord of his power.

Dan. 4:32 tells us, Christ caused beasts to eating, in the completion of Lord in his power to show that the Lord is rule over everything.

Look next verse 33 tells us, King Neb. was caused to eat the grass like as animal. He was not actaully to eat the grass in his own purpose, Lord caused King Neb. ate the grass. Because the Lord is in His control everything of his power.

Look next verse 34, King Neb realized that the Lord is so power and omnipotent, that the Lord rules over everything.

I want to show you in Psalms 12:6 - "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth,purified seven times."

Often, I heard KJVO uses Psalms 12:6 to prove the history tells us, KJV being edited sevenj times since 1611 A.D. to today.

But, they misintepreting what Psa. 12:6 talk about.

Psa. 12:6 explains us, HOW POWERFUL of God's Word is. Also, God's word is pure and completion or perfection.

Dan. 4:16,23,25,32 have do nothing with 'seven church ages' or 'seven ages'.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

The earthquake at the 7th Seventh Bowl is
much more severe than the earlier one
at the 6th Seal. It takes 1,000 to 10,000
times as much energy to flatten
a mountain as to move it over a bit.
It takes 1,000 to 10,000 times
as much energy to cause an island to
disappear under the water as it does
to move it over a bit.

Sixth Seal Earthquake:
Revelation 6:12-14 (HCSB):

Then I saw Him open the sixth seal.
A violent earthquake occurred;
the sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair;
the entire moon became like blood;
13 the stars of heaven fell to the earth as
a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a high wind;
14 the sky separated like a scroll being rolled up;
and every mountain and island was moved from its place.


Seventh Bowl Earthquake:
Revelation 16:17-21 (HCSB):

Then the seventh poured out his bowl into the air,
and a loud voice came out of the sanctuary,
from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
18 There were lightnings, rumblings, and thunders.
And a severe earthquake occurred like no other
since man has been on the earth -- so great was the quake.
19 The great city split into three parts,
and the cities of the nations fell.
Babylon the Great was remembered in God's presence;
He gave her the cup filled with the wine of His fierce anger.
20 Every island fled, and the mountains disappeared.
21 Enormous hailstones, each weighing about 100 pounds,
fell from heaven on the people, and they blasphemed God
for the plague of hail because that plague was extremely severe.

 

[Ed Edwards]

The last IT IS FINISHED in the Bible:

Revelation 21:2-6 (HCSB):

I also saw the Holy City, new Jerusalem,
coming down out of heaven from God,
prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.
3 Then I heard a loud voice from the throne:
Look! God's dwelling is with men,
and He will live with them.
They will be His people, and God Himself
will be with them and be their God.
4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes.
Death will exist no longer; grief,
crying, and pain will exist no longer,
because the previous things have passed away.
5 Then the One seated on the throne said,
"Look! I am making everything new." He also said,
"Write, because these words are faithful and true."
6 And He said to me, "It is done!
I am the Alpha and the Omega,
the Beginning and the End.
I will give to the thirsty from
the spring of living water as a gift.

 

[Spirit and Truth]

Ed quoted:

I also saw the Holy City, new Jerusalem,
coming down out of heaven from God,

S&T:

Ed,

Where do you think it will be coming down to? Just wondering....

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Spirit and Truth:
Ed,
Where do you think it will be coming down to? Just wondering....

I have no idea.

However, it will house some 1,000 Billion
humans and angels at the rate
of 4,000 people/angels per square mile
of 100 ft high floors.

There were some 35 Billion souls
born 33AD to 1990AD.
There is plenty of room left in the
New Jerusalem (heaven come to the
new earth). Won't you sign up today?

 

[Spirit and Truth]

The reason why I asked Ed, is because if everybody is taken out of here on the early rapture bus, then why would the New Jerusalem be coming down here? Just wondering...

 

[Ed Edwards]

You advocating a 1,000 year
stint in limbo?