Rapture: hocus-pocus

[michelle]

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

TC,

--------------------------------------------------
TC quoted:
But Noah went through the flood. He felt the waves and the movement of the ark. He experienced the entire flood, yet he was protected and did not perish
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Look at Revelation 3:7-11

7 And to the angel of the church of Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, HE THAT HATH THE KEY OF DAVID, HE THAT OPENETH, AND NO MAN SHUTTETH; AND SHUTTETH, AND NO MAN OPENETH;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
(notice here the promise is that the Lord will "keep thee from", and also notice they are given a crown- reference this to Rev.4:10)

and Rev. 3:2-3

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee (reference to the parable of the ten virgins).

and...

1 Thess.5:1-11
1 But of the times and the seasons, bretheren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a theif in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (reference to Matthew 24)
4 But ye bretheren, are not in darkness, that that day overtake you as a theif.
5 Ye are children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of the darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith, and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Notice that this last passage is referring to "the day of the Lord" and that we are not ordained to his wrath, but to salvation.

Now please look also at Revelation 4:1-2

1 After this I looked, and behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit, and, behold was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. (notice that "after this", which refers back to the 7 letters to the 7 churches and before the judgement of God in the following chapters of Revelation)

now reference this to 1 Thess. 4:14-18, 2 Thess.2

1 Thess.4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, bretheren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope(of the resurrection?).
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(resurrection?)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

2 Thess.2-11
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him.
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (hmmm, why would that - the day of Christ- shake them? and why does Paul console them not to be troubled?)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth, will let, until he be taken out of the way. (the Holy Spirit is restraining sin)

pay close attention..

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they had not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

The day of the Lord, or the day of Christ is the wrath of God and this starts at the opening of the first seal in Revelation chapter 6. Christ has been given judgement by God our Father, and this is when his judgment begins - we are not ordained for this - we are promised salvation from it. We also see a representation of the believers in the previous chapter (Rev.5)in heaven, and with the representation of John being called up to heaven (Rev.4).

May the Lord bless you all richly and bring comfort to your spirit concerning this.

Love in Jesus Christ our Faithful Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[firedome]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
I'm still trying to find "yo-yo" in any version!

I'm still trying to find a multi-stage return of our Lord!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

I know your way of saying on word, 'and' many times. You often saying Matt 24:31 is separate from Matt 24:29-30, you saying Matt 24:31 is 'pretrib' gathering together. Many pretribbers would not agree with you on Matt 24:31.

Often you use 'and' into two different events. But, the grammatic rule does NOT always require 'and' into different event. But also, it could be mean to be continue or to add in the same topic.

You often saying on 2 Thess 2:1 - 'and'. Remember, our gathering together CANNOT be occur till Christ comes FIRST. That what Paul tells us in the grammatic of 2 Thess. 2:1.

If you think 'and' is always meaning separate into different events.

Let's look at 1 Thess. 4:15-17 say,

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive AND remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, AND with the trump of God: AND the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive AND remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: AND so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Does that mean there is 5 different events????

I want to tell you one more verse - Matt. 24:19 -"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, AND of the Son, AND of the Holy Ghost."

Does that mean we have THREE Gods????

Titus 2:13 does not saying that our blessed hope is separate from the coming of Christ. Our blessed hope would be at the coming of Christ.

1 Thess 4:15-17 & 1 Cor. 15:51-54 - our blessed hope that our body all shall be changed into glory new body that would be at Lord's coming!

I am looking forward for Chrost's coming, that my body shall be changed into glorified new body and immortality shall NEVER NEVER die again! Amen!

Titus 2:13 does not saying it is 'pretrib' blessed hope. Blessed hope means eternal life - Titus 1:2 & Titus 3:7.

"GLORIOUS APPEARING" of Christ shall not be secert, but it shall be visibly coming - Matt 24:30 & Rev. 1:7. Both pretribbers and posttribbers agree the second coming shall be visibly, that every person one arth shall see Christ appears with power and glory - Matt 24:30 & Rev. 1:7.

Isn't 'glorious appearing' include rapture?

Isn't Christ descend from heaven would be glorious appearing?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Dr. Bob Griffin,

You say, it's 'yo-yo'

Does 1 Thess 4:15-17 saying when AFTER Christ descend out of heaven, will Christ return back to heaven again???

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

 

[michelle]

Peace and love to you in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

DeafPosttrib,

There are two comings of the Lord. The first time as the suffering servent, the second time as the Lion from the tribe of Judah. The first and second coming of Christ is meant for the nation of Israel specifically, but all those who are believers during this time generally, and the rapture is a totally different and separate event. It is important in understanding eschatology that one see the difference between Israel and the church. The church was a mystery. The jewish people did not know about it (and most of them still don't). The church is to provoke Israel to jealousy. The church has much better promises than only the inheritance of the promises of Israel (millenial reign - kingdom of God), but that of the rapture/ first resurrection. We are considered to be the bride of Christ, and we are composed of jews(remnant of Israel) and gentiles. The nation(tribes) of Israel, the literal seed of Abraham, is the wife to God. These are those who are invited to the wedding feast in Revelation and who do not recieve the first resurrection -those who look upon him whom they have pierced, and he returns when they call upon the name of the Lord - this is their rebirth as spoken of in Ezekiel 37 and 38. They recieve the second death. The church is the bride of Christ which is seen in Rev. 19 in heaven having made herself ready for the marriage supper of the Lamb. Immediately we see we are in heaven coming to earth with Jesus upon white horses. The scriptures tell us that those who are resurrected are as the same as angels. We can refer Rev. 19 to that of Zech.14:5. It is also interesting to note the parallels in Zechariah 12 to Matthew 24 which pertain specifically to the nation of Israel. Keep this in mind when you are reading the gospel account of the last days, that Jesus is speaking to the Jews, and the church was still a mystery to be revealed.

Here are some scriptures explaining why those at the time of the rapture will not hear the shout of the Lord at the rapture (last day): John 5:24-29,37-38 and John 6:63. Keep in mind also, Jesus descends to the clouds and calls us up to him to meet him in the air - the rapture of the church. He is not described here as descending out of heaven to earth upon a white horse and planting his feet on the mount of Olives, where all eyes shall see him - the second coming of Christ. His saints are in heaven with him prior to his second coming to separate the sheep from the goats, and to bind Satan in prison for 1000 years, and cast the false prophet into the lake of fire and reign for 1000 years, and finishing/fufilling prophecy and promises. Read also the promises given to those who overcome in the 7 letters to the 7 churches.

May the Lord richly bless you all.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[TC]

Michelle,

Matthew 24:3-31
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Verse 3 tells us Jesus is talking to the disciples (the Church) and not Israel. Jesus said His disciples (Church) would see the abomination of desolation. He told them that, during the great tribulation, when someone told them that Christ was here or over there or some other place not to believe it. And that the elect would be gathered after the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:47-50
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Notice that it's the wicked who are always taken away first. So, it might not be so bad to be left behind. Jesus clearly says that the wicked will be taken away first and then the just gathered in. So, I interpret other passages in context of what Jesus said instead of forcing Jesus's words to fit my preconcieved idea - for I used to be pre-trib before I was shown these things. Also note Jesus's prayer in John 17.

John 17:15
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Dr. Bob Griffin,

You say, it's 'yo-yo'

The picture of the rapture is based 100% on the marriage customs of the Jews. Every Jew would relate to it; some gentiles need a little more fleshing out of the detail.

1. The father of the bridegroom, often before the child was born, of his own free will would select a bride for his son.

2. The prospective bridegroom then took the initiative and traveled from his father’s house that of the prospective bride.

3. The fathers had already negotiated the price that must be paid to purchase the bride and show his love/responsibility.

4. When this price was paid, the marriage covenant was thereby established. From this point, the man and woman were classified as “husband and wife”, even though no physical union had occurred.

5. The groom and the bride then drank from a cup over which the betrothal benediction had been pronounced. This symbolized the covenant relationship established.

6. With the marriage covenant in effect, the groom returned to his father’s house. He remained there for a period of at least 12 months separated from his bride.

7. During this separation, the bride gathered her wardrobe and prepared for married life. The groom prepared a new room on his father’s house as their accommodation

8. At the close of the separation and the time selected by the father, the groom and male escorts left his father’s house, usually at night, and led a torch-light procession to the bride’s house.

9. The bride was expecting her groom, but did not know exactly the day/time he would come. His impending arrival came with a shout and blowing shofar.

10. The bride and her escorts got their lamps and joined the procession back to the groom’s new home.

11. The entire wedding party joined together for a feast that usually lasted 7 days or longer.

12. During this 7-day period in the Father's house, the bride and groom entered the bridal chamber and join in physical union for the first time, consummating the marriage.


(continued)

 

[Dr. Bob]

Applying the Jewish Wedding to OURS!

1. God the Father, of his own will alone, chose a bride for His Son in eternity past. (Romans 9:16; Ephesians 1:4)

2. Christ left His Father’s house and came to earth to gain a bride for Himself. (Ephesians 5:25-28)

3. Christ had to pay the bride price with His own blood to satisfy the outraged holiness of God and cover sin. (I Corinthians 6:19)

4. The believer has been declared set apart or sanctified exclusively for Christ.
(I Corinthians 6:11)

5. Christ symbolized this marriage covenant by introducing a new covenant for His church in His blood at the Last Supper
(I Corinthians 11:25)

6. Christ returned to His Father’s house following the payment of his purchase price. (John 6:62)

7. Christ is preparing a place for His bride, and has given pastors/teachers to make the bride perfect for the coming wedding. (John 14:1-2; Ephesians 4:11-13; 5:26-27)

8. Christ will soon come from His Father’s house in heaven accompanied by an angelic host. (John 14:3)

9. While we do not know the exact day or hour, a trump and a shout will precede Christ’s return at the home of the bride.
(I Thessalonians 4:16)

10. The Lord will catch up His bride to be taken back to His father’s house.
(I Thessalonians 4:17)

11. Christ will take us to heaven where we will enjoy a 7-year marriage feast together, while the earth suffers great tribulation. (Revelation 19:7-10)

12. Christ’s union with His bride will consummate in heaven, where the bride will live for all eternity with her Lord.
(II Peter 1:11; I Corinthians 15:24-28)

 

[TC]

So, we'er supposed to go by some tradition instead of what the Bible says? I see know where in scripture that say the second coming of Christ is like any such tradition.

 

[michelle]

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,

TC,

The second coming of Christ is meant for Israel. It is not the rapture. The rapture is meant for the Bride of Christ only - who are the churches.

What signifigance do you see with a woman travailing in birth, and the beginning of sorrows? This is describing childbirth, and the labor pains prior to the birth. Who do you think is being birthed in this reference? Who is to be born? If we look at Ezekiel 37 and 38 we can begin to understand which ultimately speaking about the redemption of Israel and the Revelation of Jesus Christ, his coming and reigning. There is also another meaning to this childbirth that could be interpretated also, that of anti-christ. I can see that it might be referring to both of these, because we see both these things happen during tribulation, the rebirth of the nation of Israel (the spiritual rebirth during tribulation) and the revealing of antichrist, or that wicked one.

Also, if you compare the degrees of judgements in the book of Revelation, to the degrees compared to in Matthew 24 and to that of childbirth itself (which I can because I have given birth to two children), that they are all related, and have to do with Israel. The church is already born again in the blood of the Lamb. Israel has been blinded in part until the fullness of the gentiles be come in. They have been blinded for the sake of the rest of the world's salvation through the work of the His church. When that work is done, He turns his attention back to Israel to fulfill prophecy and his promises to Abraham, Issaac and Jacob, and his seed forever - for HIS HOLY NAMES SAKE. Their Messiah is also referred to as their kinsmen redeemer. He is their kin, and they are his kin - the root and offspring of David.

Again, the disciples were jews, and they knew nothing about the church, or the salvation of the gentiles yet when Jesus spoke these things. He is clearly speaking about Israel, and the jews, if you notice the locations he names, and he even mentions the sabbath. We, the church, do not keep the Sabbath, and most of us do not live in Judaea.

Please reference these events, to those we find in the book of Revelation also.

I agree with Dr. Bobs analagy of the Jewish wedding, and find it very relevant, as also the feasts of the Jews were/are representative of Jesus Christ.

love in Jesus Christ our Faithful Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[DeafPosttrib]

The second coming of Christ is meant for Israel. It is not the rapture.

Word, "rapture" is not find in the Bible, we know that. The gathering together always mean rapture.

Rapture is:

thief in the night
caught up
gathering together
harvest.

Gathering together /harvest do not separate from Lord's coming.

Isn't "coming" of Matt 24:30 same as "coming" of 1 Thess 4:15??

the rebirth of the nation of Israel(the spiritual rebirth during tribulation)

None verse in the Bible support dispensationalism doctrine.

I want to telling you about the context of Ezekiel chapter 37 talks about the resurrection, not rebirth of the nation of Israel.

"Again he said unto me, Propesy unto these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:" - Ezekiel 37:4-5,

It continues,

"Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God: behold, O my people, I will open your GRAVES, and cause you to COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves." - Ezekiel 37:12-13

The context of Ezekiel chapter 37 talking about the blessed hope for Israel, that they shall be resurrection from the graves, and bring them together to dwell in Mt. Zion(the land of Israel) where Lord dwells, so therefore, they shall dwell with the Lord forever and ever.

The resurrection of God's elect shall be at the second coming.

Right now, every elects are still buried in their graves, Ezekiel chapter 37 not yet fulfill, till Christ comes, then it shall be fulfilled.


The context of Romans chapter 11 talks about God does not forsake his people(Jews). But, Jews were removed from the tree because of their unbelief. Only remain Jews stay remain in the same tree- belief. Gentiles are now grafted join with believing Jews on the same tree together. Tree is the picture of Jesus Christ - Calvary.

Romans 11:25 tells us, the blindness part is happened to natural Israel, these who were blind, unbelief, and reject Christ as their Messiah. SO, Gentiles are grafted into the tree to join with believing Jews together.

"Until the fullness of the Gentiles BE COME IN". It talks about Gentiles is now grafting into the tree.

So....

"ALL Israel shall be saved"- Romans 11:26.

That mean, both Jews and Gentiles whosever believe on Jesus Christ, all are Israel. I am part of Israel.

Also, Romans 11:26 will be completed at the second coming, that both Jews and Gentiles are all together into Israel, as the building of the Church(Matt 16:18) will be done.

Again, the disciples were jews, and they knew nothing about the church...

Christ already teach to his disciples about the church - Matt 16:18 BEFORE He lectured to them on Mt. Olivet Discourse - Matthew 24.

he even mentions the sabbath. We the church, do not keep the Sabbath, and most of us do not live in Judea

Keep in mind, many Gentile Christians are now dwelling in Israel right now. I believe the great tribulation shall begin within Jerusalem first, when the great tribulation first hit Israel, many Gentiles & Jews Christians will flee hide into the wilderness from the persecution - Matt 24:15-21.

Christ warns to us(future last generation Christians)their journey or flee into wilderness will not be easy. Their journey will be much difficult times. CHrist said, "But PRAY ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath ('day' KJV adds it, but not in Textus Receptus- Greek Translation):"

I understand what Christ talked about accord to Matt 24:20. He warns us, that our flight will not be easy, our flight will be difficult times, no matter what kind of weathers and conditions we face during flight. Our flight will not be REST. Sabbath means, rest. Christ does not saying on Saturday or Sunday either. Christ warns us that we will not rest from the persecutions and tribulations TILL Christ comes with his angels.

2 Thess 1:7 tells us, that we shall not rest from the persecutions(2 Thess 1:4-7) TILL Christ comes with his angels. Then, Christians shall be finally rest and peace from the persecutions. Christ will end the persecutions and tribulations. Christ shall punish upon persecutors who persecute against us at His coming - 2 Thess. 1:6.

Notice I Thess 4:15, Paul said, "For this we say unto you by the WORD of the Lord..." Paul learned about the coming of Christ comes from the revelation in Galatians 1:12. Revelation means supernatural communication between Christ and Paul, while Paul listened Him, wrting down same. That's how Paul learned the doctrines come from Christ through the revelation.

I would like to show you the chart compare of Matt 24:30-31 with 1 Thess 4:15-17:

1.COMING
Matt. 24:30
I Thess. 4:15

2. HEAVEN
Matt. 24:30
I Thess 4:16

3.CLOUDS
Matt. 24:30
I Thess. 4:17

4.ANGELS
Matt. 24:31
I Thess. 4:16(Clear in 2 Thess. 1:7)

5. SOUND
Matt. 24:31
I Thess. 4:16(shout same as sound)

6.TRUMPET
Matt. 24:31
I Thess. 4:16

7.ELECT
Matt. 24:31
I Thess 4:16('in Christ' is elect)

8.TOGETHER
Matt. 24:31
I Thess. 4:17

9.WIND
Matt. 24:31
I Thess. 4:17

Both of the compare of Matt 24:30-31 & 1 Thess 4:15-17 are very clear same passage.

I Thess. 4:15-17 does not saying 'pretrib' or 'posttrib' either.

The context of 1 Thess. 4:13-18 talk about Christians who concerning about their love one who already died, what will happen tot ehm. Paul comforts them, do not worry about what will happen to their love one, He told them, they will see their love one again when Christ comes again. That would be a great reunion day. Paul was not discuss about the timing of Christ's coming of 1 Thess. 4:13-18, Paul talks abouyt what will happen to their love one, that they will see their love one again when Christ comes again, that would a wonderful reunion day.

I only know our gathering together shall be after the tribulation according to Matt 24:29.

Early Church taught only ONE future coming of Christ. None of them were teaching on split or two phases of the second coming for tthe first of 18 Centuries. Till John Nelson Darby developed new doctrine on split comings of the second coming.

None of it is teaching in the Bible.

the rapture is a totally different and separate event

Bible does not support your comment.

Rapture always goes with Lord's coming same time.

Rapture does not separate from the second coming.

Often, in the Bible teaching us, that our gathering together shall be at Lord's coming. Lord's coming is simple second coming. No argue. Believe and adopt what the Bible saying it.

Dr. Bob Griffin,

we will enjoy a 7-year marriage feast together...

No scripture supports your comment.

The Marriage of the Lamb will not be occur TILL Revelation chapter 19 that would be at the end of the Tribulation period.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

[ March 03, 2004, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: DeafPosttrib ]

 

[michelle]

Peace and love to you in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

The first thing that I have found that will be difficult for us to dialogue about this, is the fact that you do not separate Israel from the church, and I do. Because you do this it causes you to spiritualize to make sense, in areas that are meant to be literal.

As far as Matthew 16 and the church. Do you think the apostles at the time were in understanding of what this church really was? Did they understand that it was also for the gentiles? Do the gospels tell us this about their understanding of the church? Romans 11 is describing the wild branches(gentiles) that have been grafted onto the natural olive tree (Jesus Christ - Israel), and we are also told that how much more is it for the natural branches (jews) to be grafted onto it's own tree(Jesus Christ)? (Look at Romans 11 - I am not quoting verbatim) All Israel shall be saved, when the natural branches are grafted back in due to belief. God has told us he would do this.

Ezekeil 37 and 38 has only been partially fulfilled. Refer Matthew 23:37 to when Jesus Christ refered to living people, the scribes and Pharisees as "full of dead mens bones". These bones represent the whole house of Israel. And God brings them together, bone to bone, and puts flesh upon them, but yet they do not yet have breath in them, and God had just said he would breath into them. Then we see that Ezekiel continues to prophesy and told to prophesy to the wind and the four winds breath upon them that they may live. Compare this to Revelation chapter 7 and then Revelation chapter 11. This is speaking of the same thing as in Ezekiel.

Secondly, your comment regarding the KJV not using the received text is not accurate or true. The received text is what underlines the KJV. I use the KJV and believe that it is the preserved word of God for the english speaking people. So regarding the "Sabbath day", I see this as accurate - you apparently do not. The sabbath day, at the time Jesus Christ spoke to his disciples, who were Jews, and who knew what the sabbath day was, is what the intended meaning of this verse should be. It in no way indicates rest in the manner you ascribe to it. It is very dangerous to spiritualize things in order to understand. WE must first approach with a literal reading unless otherwise appropriate.

Our Lord's desire is not that we endure persecution. Our Lord's desire is that we serve him, by serving others and sharing the gospel to others that they might also be saved. Persecution comes from the enemy, and it is he who wishes our persecution. The idea that this is what our Lord desire's for us, is not the same Lord that I know and love. WE are told to expect persecution, sufferring, and martydom BECAUSE of our faith for HIM. We do not look for it or desire this, and we sure are not required to have it. It is something that will automatically follow one's faith, some more than others, some none at all, because it is the enemies doing.

Paul recieved a revelation from Jesus Christ. No doubt. So did John, and he was told to write down what he saw, and not close the book. It is the book of Revelation. The Revelation of Jesus Christ. It is interesting to note, that Daniel was told to close the book.

love in Jesus Christ our Faithful Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Ed Edwards]

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <--You are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth


Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib a-mill outline:

0. church age continues - is the same as:
2. Tribulation time - is the same as:
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth


Peterist a-mill outline:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection <done happened
2. Tribulation time <you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event <done happend
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom <done happened
5. new heaven & new earth <done happened


Ed recommends the pretrib pre-mill
view as aligning most nearly with Holy Scripture.
Ed recommends:
get Rapture Ready!
Stay Rapture Ready!

Hashem be Praised!!!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Michelle,

Stop and think....

Bible does not teaching us there is division among the Body of Christ.

The Body of Christ is the most important doctrine that we should know.

Firstly, I want to discuss on the covenant. I am not "covenant theology". I understand what the Bible teaches us about the covenant. Covenant sames as testament, it means promise.

We should read whole Galatians chapter 3 discuss about the covenant.

Abraham was saved by the faith, and he was ready counted him into righteousness - Gal. 3:6 refers to Genesis 15:6, also, in Romans 4:3-5. He was saved by faith, not by works. Same with Eph. 2:8-10. God's plan of salvation never change since creation to now, and it will remain always the same plan till the second coming.

So, Paul tells us, we know that they(O.T. saints) have faith, they are same the children of Abraham.- Gal. 3:7

Then, he said, the covenant does not limited to Israel as nation only, also to all heathens. That the gospel spread to all nations be blessed. Many people9Gentiles)across the nations have faith, they are the same children of Abraham. Because God called him, 'father of many nations' - Gen. 17:5.

Paul tells us, the blessing of Abraham might come upon Gentiles THROUGH Jesus Christ, that we receive the promise of the Spirit THROUGH faith - Gal. 3:14.

The seed of Abraham is many, BUT the ONE SEED IS JESUS CHRIST - Gal. 3:16, that means, many Jews in the O.T. were saved by the faith through Jesus Christ, same as we as Gentiles are saved by the faith through Jesus Christ - the same seed.

It promises us, that we have faith in Jesus Christ by believe upon Him - Gal. 3:22

During old testament, people keeping 500 laws, and doing sacrifices, and offerings while under the old covenant - Gal. 3:23-24.

But, now, we are not under the laws, and no longer doing daily sacrifices and offerings anymore, we are no longer under the old covenant, now we are under the new covenant through Jesus Christ because of cross - Gal. 3:25-26.

Gal. 3:26 tells us, ALLLLL (both Jew & Gentile) are children of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

Gal. 3:27-28 tell us, all of us have been baptized(NOT water baptized, but filled with Holy Spirit by born again) INTO Christ have put on Christ.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek(Gentiles), there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are ALLLLLLLLL ONE in Christ Jesus." - Gal. 3:28.

Abraham's covenant does NOT limited to a tiny nation - Israel for the Jews only, also to MANY nations whosever believe on Jesus Christ, BOth all are ONE in Jesus Christ!

If you be IN Christ's, THEN you are part of Abraham's seed and heir according to the PROMISE. - Gal. 3:29.

That why dispensationalism doctrine cause so much confusion about the distinction between Israel and the Church.

We have to understand about the covenant and also cross too.

I suggest you to read whole Ephesians chapter 2 discuss about reconcilation through calvary.

Paul tells us, that Gentiles were in the flesh called uncircumcision.- Eph. 2:11 But, now we are circumcised through the Holy Spirit by faith on Jesus Christ - Romans 3:29-30.

Paul tells us, that, Gentiles were strangers and alien, and separate from the commonwealth of Israel. But, NOW, we are no longer stranger, alien, and we are now part of the commonwealth of Israel. -Eph. 2:12

We were far away from Christ, but NOW Christ bring us together to unity or reconcile with Jews together through the Calvary in ONE BODY by the cross - Eph. 2:13-16.

Same with Romans chapter 11 mentioned about Gentiles are now grafted into the tree which believing Jews are remain in the same tree. Both Gentiles and Jews are unity together on the SAME TREE which is Jesus Christ!!

We are many members but we all are ONE in Jesus Christ - 1 Cor. 12:12.

Romans chapter 11, Galatians chapter 3, and Ephesians chapter 2 do discuss about the Church.

Church is not a building, but spiritual in Jesus Christ, we are called out from the dark, and bring into the light through Jesus Christ - 1 Peter 2:9.


Tomorrow I will continue discuss more about Israel and Church on verses. Because I have to go to work tonight - 3rd shift.

I want to telling you something. ONCE Gentiles and Jews are reconciled together through Jesus Christ by Calvary, then, there will be NO LONGER divided again among the body of Christ - Eph. 2:13-16.

Apostle Paul does not discuss about the matter between Israel and the Church of Ephesians chapter 2. He discusses about the individual over the world either Jew or Gentile whosever believe upon Jesus Christ, both are ALREADY reconciled together into ONE BODY in Christ by the cross.

That what the Calvary is for.

I will discuss much more details with verse on the issue of church and Israel tomorrow. I have to go to work now.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[michelle]

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

DeafPosttrib,

I think that you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I say this, because your post seemed to point to truths, I already know, understand and believe regarding faith and Abraham and the one body in Christ, that you seem to think I don't understand. I do not disagree with that. But Salvation came first to the jew, then the gentile. The jews were blinded by God Almighty himself, until the fullness of the gentiles come in, by adoption or grafting into the natural. The promises were origionally to the tribes of Israel, those who God chose - his elect, gave them their own land forever, and gave them his first covenant and law. God's purpose was to bring forth Messiah through his own people who would be the Saviour of all. But God has also made promises to the nation of Israel, that the church (remnant jews and gentiles)has also inherited through our adoption. God tells us not to be wise in our own conceits concerning Israel. God has not cut them off forever. We can see this clearly in Romans 11. What I have noticed many people have a tendency to do, is forget about or spiritualize prophecy concerning the nation of Israel according to the last days in order to make sense of their post trib or preterist viewpoint. This makes one error, I fear. Do not misunderstand me, I do not believe jews that practice judaism or any jew for that matter, are saved automatically - just because they are jewish. Indeed they are very lost, and have the spirit of anti-christ and we should continue to share the gospel with them, but Christ is a stumblingblock to them - I have witnessed this myself. However, I do see prophecy concerning thier salvation as a whole nation - the twelve tribes of Israel. I see that in the tribulation period, that they finally see and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved - all Israel shall be saved. Just as the Lord spoke to Israel about the new covenant and the salvation of the gentiles, they did not believe it at that time, and I find it interesting many christians today, cannot see the redemption of Israel in the tribulation period, just as they did not see the gentiles. If God has blinded them for the sake of the gentiles to be come in, then God will also unblind them at some point when the fullness of the gentiles are in (at the rapture)so that God can complete what he said he would do for the nation of Israel as he promised. God's promise was to Israel first. It all has to do with God's grace and mercy, but in his timing, and his way.

One good way to look at end time prophecy concerning the second coming of Jesus, is to understand how prophecy was fulfilled regarding his first coming - literally. If Israel received them at that time as their Messiah, you and I would not be here now even discussing this. But God had bigger and better plans - that of the whole world. In order to do this, he had to blind the tribes of Israel in part, for the salvation of the world. He will redeem them as he promised. God always dealt with Israel with the carnal way, rather than the spiritual. The church is the spiritual representation of Christ and Israel was the physical representation of Jesus Christ on earth. This is the way I have understood this.

The church is spiritual, made up of several churches for 2000 years in different parts of the world in different ages. Those who were old testament saints were also of the same faith, as they looked forward to the cross, and we look backward to the cross. All this does not however negate the tribulation period concerning Israel. The book of Revelation is quite clear on this, as well as in the gospels, and the old testament prophets. It amazed me, when God showed to me that the nation of Israel (God the Father -like Abraham) literally sacrificed the real lamb(Jesus Christ- like Isaac) without blemish on the real passover, and they chose this lamb of thier own will(obeyed God), found that he was without blemish and shed his blood, and they DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE IT. This is why Jesus said upon the cross, Father, forgive them, they know not what they do. They didn't know, and if they had known, then the gentiles would not have come in to the salvation plan as God intended. This was necessary to blind them in part, so that God's plan could go forth. God also promised that he would always preserve a remnant of believers - from the tribes of Israel. We also see in Revelation 22 the New Heaven and the New Earth, and the description of the New Jerusalem. Notice that it has the twelve tribes of Israel, and the twelve apostles names. This is where and when they have finally become one in Christ as a whole. Not all the tribes have yet been redeemed. Only remnants of them from various ages. The nation of Israel rejected their Messiah, but will just prior to the second coming call upon his name, and thus all Israel shall be saved. This is their national salvation, and the beginning of the promises to them to be fulfilled. Why do you think there is a millenial reign, and then Satan loosed for a time? We also see the promise that God made to Abraham, of his seed measuring as the sands of the sea fulfilled at the end of the millenium in Rev.20:8. God is telling us here in the book of Revelation, prior to this happening, that he will fulfill this promise, and we know he will because he said he will. It will be fulfilled at the end of the millenial reign! Angels are not to be given in marraige, and those who are resurrected will be as the angels, therefore we will not be able to marry, hence not be able to bear seed. There will be those who survived tribulation, those tribes of Israel who survived and recieved Jesus Christ living during this time (as well as others who believe). They will marry and have children, and live in true peace and prosperity with the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah/King. The church will reign with Jesus Christ, that is he has made us to be priests and kings to rule with him and also to judge the angels. The promises to the church are much better promises, than those that the nation of Israel had, but God still promised these things to them forever. She has been unfaithful to him, but he is a faithful husband, and will not leave her altogether unpunished, but will heal her of her wounds. What a wonderful, loving, gracious, merciful and faithful God Almighty we have!

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[DeafPosttrib]

The context of Romans chapter 11 say NOTHING about the NATION of Israel. The context of Romans chapter 11 discusses about the individuals of salvation. The mainly focus of Romans chapter 11 talk about believing upon Christ, should be abide on Christ, if any person stopped believing or abide, shall be cast away. Same with John 15:6.

The reestablish nation of Israel is not find anywhere in the New Testament. Go ahead, you have to looking in the STRONG'S Concordance to find verses anywhere in the New Testament mention future nation of Israel. You will not find anywhere in the New Testament.

Why? Because we are no longer under the old covenant anymore - Heb. 8:13. Now we are under the new covenant through Calvary.

God already did promised with Abraham about the land. It fulfilled DURING Old Testament period. That King David already possesed from the river of Egypt to Euphrate River - 2 Samuel 8:3; and 1 Chron. 18:3 fulfilled Gen. 15:18. It was relate to conditonal promise. BUT, God made an unconditional promsie with Abraham - Gen. 17:4-8 is not limited for the Jews of Israel only, also, many nations over the world for everlasting covenant.

We shall ingherit God's promise that we will posses new earth and to reigning with Christ in the future for everlasting.

Apostle Paul and Jesus Christ never teaching to them about the future rebirth nation of Israel again. Paul emphasis to us, that the covenant of God is spiritual everlasting blessing - salvation in Jesus Christ - Galatains chapter 3.

The definition of Israel

When the angel wrestled with Jacob in Genesis 32:24-28. Angel asked him, what's his name? He said, Jacob. Angel said to him, "Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: 'for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."

Israel means Prince have the power to build his people with success.

Notice three important words of verse 28: 'power', 'men', and 'prevailed'. Why there are three important words?

Who wrestled with Jacob? Angel? Possible, but I strongly believe Jesus wrestled with him.

About 2 years ago, I learned new thing what I read from the Word of God about Israel.

Please look to Matt. 16:18-19.

Jesus says, "...I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

There are three important words of verse 18-19: 'church', 'prevail', and 'keys'.

Keys represent power.

I understand what Christ was talking about. He tells us, that He will build his people, and the hell can't success destroy them, because Christ given the power to his people to carry the kingdom.

Same with Genesis 32:28, Christ told Jacob, a prince have power with his people, and will build on them with sucess.

There is no difference between Israsel and the Church. Church is Israel, Israel is Church.

I am NOT a replacement theology.

I understand what the Bible teaching us.

Church means called out, assembly, congregation.

Remember during 1611 A.V. translation, King James wanted word, 'church' to put it in that Bible instead' congregation'.

Church was already there during Old Testament period before Christ came to earth.

Acts 7:38 tells us, that the church was in the wilderness with Moses. Church already there. Church does not begin with Pentacost Day.

1 Cor. 10:4 tells us, "And did ALL drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual ROCK that followed them: and that ROCK was Christ."

Paul tells us, people with Moses in the wilderness were follow Christ, the rock.

Church already there.

Jesus is Israel
Jesus is Church


Matt 16:18 tells us, Christ is our rock. Church is the rock.

Yes, Matthew chapter 24 is apply to all believers both Jews and Gentiles.

Aren't Matt 24:42 & 44 apply to us????

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[R. Charles Blair]

Brother Ed - responding quickly to your note on p. 2 before I leave for a Bible confefence to hear a pre-mil pre-trib friend preach - you don't have to know Greek to appreciate the deity of Christ in the first clause. The very same rule applies to the very same grammar in the second. The two nouns are seen as the same.

I note no one has yet commented on "the judgment" in the passages cited? Best - Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

[michelle]

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

DeafPosttrib,

Please read 1 Corinthians chapter 2. This is speaking of the mystery of God, who is Jesus Christ who has established the church. In that this is indicated as a mystery, and a hidden one at that, no one could have known this mystery unless God had revealed it to them but by the Spirit.

I have noticed that you never reference to the book of Revelation. It might do you well to do this. Specifically Rev.7 and Rev. 11. Also please take a look at Rev.5:8-14. Immediately following in chapter 6, the Lamb opens the 7 seals of the book that was in the right hand of him who sat upon the throne. What follows the opening of the seals? Judgements. What is this book? Title deed to the world? -possibly. WE are not ORDAINED TO THE WRATH OF GOD. We are in heaven prior to his wrath, just as God has kept those faithful from his previous judgements, he also keeps us from them. Look particularlly at Rev.6:17. Then we see the tribes of Israel being sealed in chapter 7. We are not Israel. We are the church or Bride of Christ. We are also seen in Rev.19:7-8, in heaven the wife of the lamb was given fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. Then in Rev.19:14 we see the armies that follow him upon white horses clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Now reference this to Zechariah 14:5. Remember, we need to take the text as it plainly says unless otherwise appropriate. Israel is clearly the focus, but the whole world in general, and the saints are in heaven returning with the Lord for the marriage supper/feast and the separation of goats from the sheep.


One more very important thing to keep in mind, is the imminency of our Lord Jesus Christ return. He could come at any moment. WE at least know this one thing, we will not be here during the tribulation period - God has promised us this, and I believe him. I anticipate daily, to here his call up unto him, and in the twinkling of an eye, I will be with him in a new and glorified body like unto his, and I will be able to see his face and all his glory. I will not be here looking for him with my eyes coming in the clouds, and I will not be looking for him landing on the mount of Olives. I wait for his voice saying to me "Come up hither". I hope you do to.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[brumleyj]

blessing hope and glorious appearing are same meaning.

ed edward you saying that blessing hope is pretrib rapture glorious apperaing is second coming of Jesus Christ. this is not making me sense.

sorry i did not argee with you.

blessing hope is refer to titus 1:2,3:7 and I cor 15;51-54 , i thess 4:14-17

john 14:1-3 Jesus tell us his promise for christian will dwell in his place at second advent We will looking foward new earth and new heaven at second advent refer to 2 peter 3:10-13, rev 21.

jbrumley
Ps 27:1
amen