Rapture: hocus-pocus

[DeafPosttrib]

michelle,

I will reply back to what you saying to me today. I will reply back to you tomorrow or Monday, because I have to sleep now, for work tonight - 3rd shift.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Charles Meadows]

"The verse clearly says TRUMP of God, not trumpet."

The word here is salpingos - that means trumpet.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Aren't Matt 24:31; 1 Thess 4:16; and 1 Cor. 15:52 of trump/trumpet - same??

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[michelle]

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

DeafPosttrib,

I see that you mingle things one with another, that have no relation to one another. It is very important that we rightly divide the word of God. You made mention of an amount of christians who would be raptured. I assume, and I hope, that you are just giving an example, because we do not know how many there will be. The problem I have with your mathmatical calculation to prove your point, in that God would not have enouph time for judgement of the saints during the tribulation period is not accurate, and denying the abilities of God Almighty. It is important to understand that God is spirit, and He is also eternal. He is not confined, nor restricted by time. Time is something we must deal with, however God is outside time. As Peter said, a day with the Lord is as 1000 years, and 1000 years as a day. God has plenty of time to give the rewards due to the saints during this time in heaven.

You also seemed to imply that I said people would die during the millenial reign, which I did not say at all (I really don't know if they do or not). I said at the end of the millenial reign, some would be resurrected to eternal lake of fire from hell, and others will be resurrected to eternal life - which is the second death. All will be resurrected for the Great White throne Judgement, where those whose name are not written in the Lambs book of Life, will be judged by the law. Those who had not recieved the gift of God of salvation through the Lamb of God and his shed blood, must pay the full penalty for thier sins. They will be judged by their works according to God's holy law, and we know that all have fallen short of the glory of God, and there is not one that is righteous, no not one. They will be sent to eternal lake of fire. Those that have been saved, and washed in the blood of the lamb during the millenial reign will be be given life eternal in the New Jerusalem, where God is our temple.

The whole premise of this thread was that the rapture was hocus pocus, meaning this is a false belief. The words hocus pocus denote an evil connotation to it, and to that of majic, or sorcery. The rapture is a word that sums up the definition that is explained in the scriptures, that one uses to sum it up in one word, and it is accurate. As I have explained in all my previous posts, the gathering together unto the Lord, or the catching away of all the saints, is a separate event meant only for the church. It has nothing to do with the second coming of Jesus Christ or the harvest, but precludes it. This is where God focuses all his attention toward the redemption of Israel, and his judgements upon the unbelieving and wicked world who have rejected him and his offer of salvation in Jesus Christ. This is where God's physical judgements are poured forth upon the face of the whole world. Satan is given a mark, not to decieve the nations any longer, and bound in prison till the thousand years are finished. He is again released, and to gather together the nations from the four corners of the earth to battle. God had told us previously, that Satan was given a mark to no longer be able to decieve the nations again. This is referred to as Gog and Magog, which happens at the end of the millenial reign. Then the Great White Throne Judgement comes, immediately after Satan was cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are. Ineed, most of the book of Revelation take place in a progressive order, as one studies this and finds that the seventh seals bring in the seven trumpets, and the seventh trumpet brings forth the seven vials/plagues. It is indeed a progression of God's judgements, and in order, and meant to take it literally unless otherwise appropriate.

You are trying to convince me of your viewpoint and that it is true and accurate. I am sound in my pre-trib view, more now than ever before. When I was first saved I believed this, but was still quite unlearned (still am, but growing more in understanding)and the mid,post, and preterist views would bother me greatly, and put me into doubt before the Lord constantly. The Lord has faithfully and truthfully shown me that his promise is true. I seem to get the impression that you assume I think that you are not saved, or believing false doctrine. Please, do not assume what people think. This can get you into trouble. I have come across many christians who do not believe in the pre-trib rapture as being the truth. Does this make them any less a christian? No, absolutely not! Does this make them unsaved? Absolutely Not! The Lord shows us things in his own time, when he feels it is time for us to know them. I know that my belief is correct based upon the understanding he has given me according to the study of his word regarding this, and no one can change it. You may believe the same thing regarding your belief on it. Whether I am right and you are wrong, or I am wrong and you are right, we do know this for sure, that when HE DOES CALL US UP, we will hear his voice, and there forever will we be with the Lord. We will see his beautiful face and all his glory, and we will no longer have sinful flesh, but glorified bodies like unto his. This is what I hope for, and this is why it is called our blessed hope.

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Michelle,

I will reply back to you later on Sunday or Monday

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[R. Charles Blair]

Michelle - Why are you "spiritualizing" God?

Best in Christ - Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

[michelle]

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!


R Charles Blair,

How am I spiritualizing God? Why are you not believing what God has said? Which I assume by your comment, and regarding the theme topic of this thread.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord,
michelle

 

[R. Charles Blair]

My dear sister: "It is important to understand that God is spirit, and He is also eternal. He is not confined, or restricted by time."

You are absolutely correct, and thereby you undercut the insistence on a physically literal thousand years in Rev. 20. You are recognizing, as Jesus said to the woman at the well, that "God is Spirit." When sun, moon, and stars crash (in Rev. 6), we should be prepared for the message of the 7th angel, that "there should be time no longer." To "physicalize" God is just as much error as to "spiritualize" flesh. (Other than the incarnation, of course; it is unique.) To limit Him to work on this earth, or by our timetable, is also an error. I beleive Scripture, absolutely. I do not believe systems imposed on Scripture. I offer no "theory-ology" of my own, but if you have noted a few of my recent posts, I would enjoy seeing your (or any) treatment of the very literal passages I've quoted concerning "the judgment," "the day," "the hour," and the fact that lost and saved people, from the Old and New Testament ages, will see each other there, and some will condemn the others. If you don't have access to those posts (all under this general head of Baptist Theology), I'll be glad to give the references again. I strongly believe it is far more important to exegete texts than to set up charts and tables. Best in Him - Charles - Rom. 8:28

 

[michelle]

Peace and love to you in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

R.Charles Blair,

I take God's word for what it says literally. There will be a literal reign of Jesus Christ on earth for 1000 years to fulfill promises to the nation of Israel. The judgements described in the book of Revelation, Matthew and the Old Testament are literal judgements, that is they take place in our reality, our time, our world. They are not spiritual.

I am not imposing anything upon the scriptures. I am believing and sharing what they say! We should be prepared daily for the Lord to call us up hither, not waiting for some angels judgement. We are promised that we are not ordainded to God's wrath:

1 Thess.5:9-11
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Wrath is the Judgement of God, whether it be spiritual or physical. If the rapture does not take place in my lifetime, I will still take part in the rapture and escape God's wrath. If I am alive (as in physically alive) at the time the call comes, I will be caught away to the Lord and recieve my glorified body (resurrected body) and escape God's wrath. This is what the scriptures say, and I believe it, and I will share it. The scriptures also tell us that the wrath begins in Tribulation period, which we are not ordained to go through. So, therefore, the Lord has said in the scriptures that we (the church) will not be here during tribulation period, hence it is a pre-trib view. I long for and expect in anticipation, every moment of every day, that the Lord will come at any given moment. Nothing to look for as to when he will come, for then we would know what day our Lord doth come, and He told us we would not, and that only our Father in Heaven knows.

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, sister Michelle -- Preach it!

 

[firedome]

Michelle,

I love your intros. So I will reciprocate.

Grace and Peace be unto you.

May I ask you to think about the fact that if in fact your concept of pre-millennialism is well founded as you believe it is, how does one reconcile for the atonement of the nation Israel when He returns for judgment and they "see Him whom they have pierced"? If I am not mistaken you will refer to Romans 11:26. If this is true where is the act of atonement for the nation of Israel? By God's own Word He says that no matter is settled unless by the witness of 2 or 3 witnesses (De.19:15; 2Co. 13:1) Where does God say that Christ has to die again? He doesn't, He said "It is finished!" (Jn. 19:30) If the nation of Israel is saved by seeing Christ part the Eastern sky they believe by sight and not faith. That makes God's Word of none effect if this is true, and Sister God's Word is not a lie. God said that He would do no secret thing without first telling His prophets. (Amos 3:7)

You stated that you believe that God's Word is literal, right? Read Psalms 18:10 and tell me that you believe that the God of all flesh had to literally ride a cherubim to aid the psalmist in his time of distress. And let's use the 1000 year reign you refer to out of Revelation. I would assume you don't literalize the Dragon having 7 heads and 10 horns. Also, I don't think you literalize the Lamb of God, Blood coming out of the horse’s bridles, literal vials (bowls) being poured out onto the Earth. Think about it, people pick out 1000 years from amongst the vast imagery in the book of Revelation and they say that that one item is to be taken literal. No one can take the Bible 100% literally. God did not intend it that way. Pre-millennialism (pre-chiliasm) is nothing more than the same trap that Israel fell into when looking for an Earthly return of David's kingdom being restored. It is a worldly doctrine seeking to fulfill the desires of the flesh.

Michelle, I recently read that it is unwise to build one's theology from one obscure verse or parables .




Maranatha,
Rodney

 

[michelle]

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

Rodney,

My theology, or rather properly referred to as eschatology, is built upon the scriptures, and obeying God that we must RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF GOD. My belief is not based solely on one passage of scripture, or one verse, or parable, but comparing scripture with scripture to get the whole picture. As I said previously, we are to take the word of God literally (ecspecially considering prophecy) unless otherwise appropriate, in the case of the Red Dragon, and the beast with 7 heads, 10 horns. Now these things are metaphors for the REAL THING, which does not negate it from taking place literally, but to describe the events in a metaphorical way. It saddens me deeply, that others would rather spiritualize the entire Book of Revelation, just because one cannot come to terms with the Biblical truth that God has not cut off the nation of Israel. This is why no mid, post, or preterists can truly understand eschatology, and get lost in the true meanings because they must spiritualize the entire book in order for their belief to make sense - this is not wise. Prophecy is not to be taken this way, unless it is appropriate. Just a reminder to you, that the Roman Catholic church denies the truth of the rapture, and does acknowledge the book of Revelation.

Now just because you cannot see it being literal, does not make it so. Make sure that what you believe is the truth, for if you don't you can be misled. I never said Christ had to die all over again. What is it with others putting words in other peoples mouths, that they have never said, nor implied? Quite frankly, I am getting really tired of it, and must ask that one really read what is being written, rather than skimming through and assuming what someone has said, based upon their bias. If you really desire to know what I have said, and believe, then go back and really read all of my posts concerning this. There is no point in repeating myself on this issure any longer, unless you have specific questions regarding things I have not mentioned.

May the Lord bless you richly and give you knowledge and understanding of his truth and love and may you continue to grow in his grace.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[DeafPosttrib]

michelle,

You say, rapture is not the second coming.

Yesterday, I received email from my friend on the 2nd coming. I LOVE that pictures about the 2nd coming.

My friend sent the site of the 2nd coming: http://www.lifetalk.net/2ndcoming/ee.html


These pictures about the 2nd coming is so VERY CLEAR and simple to understand with verses.

I agree 100% with these pictures.

I don't care about the radio, commentary on the second coming. I want you to look at these pictures show about the 2nd coming. These are so very clear and simple. These pictures go with verses.

The Bible teaches us, Christ WILL come again at once.

The Bible does notsaying that rapture is not include the 2nd coming.

Many pretribbers saying rapture is not the second coming. They saying rapture is different from the 2nd coming. If so, tell me, why do you think rapture is not 2nd coming.

Pretribbers saying, Christ will come in rapture by stand in the air, not ride on the horse. Pretribbers saying, Christ will at 2nd coming by ride on horse. Both are different event.

Ok, I ask you,

Does the riding on horses mentioned in Zechariah 14:4?

Does the riding on horses mentioned in Matt 24:29-31?

Does the resurrection mentioned in Zech. 14:4?

Does the resurrection mentioned in Matt 24:31?

Does the resurrection mentioned in Rev. 4:1?

Does the resurrection mentioned in Revelation 19?

Does Revelation 19 mentioned Christ shall touch upon Mt. Olivet?

Does Matt 24:29-31 mentioned Christ shall touch upon the Mt. Olivet?

Mentioned on riding on horses in Revelation 19 find only ONCE in the Bible describe about the second coming.

There are so many details about the 2nd coming anywhere in the Bible. But riding horses mentioned only ONCE in the Bible. Does that mean the riding on horses is exclude from Zech. 14:4 & Matt 24:31?

My point is, all pretribbers easily saying Zech 14:4 and Matt 24:29-31 speak of 2nd coming, I agree with them, while the riding on horses is NOT mentioned in both Zech. 14:4 & Matt 24:29-31 either. Does that mean the riding on horses is exclude from Zech. 14:4 & Matt 24:29-31? No.

Understand, there are many details on the 2nd coming, yet there is only ONE future coming in the Bible.

Early Christians believed only one future coming. Even, all early Christians know the gathering together/caught up go with the coming. No early Christian saying caught up is separate from the 2nd coming for many Centuries.

Till in the 19th Century, John Nelson Darby invented into two future comings or two phases of the 2nd coming, he taught caught up called, 'rapture' is the first phase of the 2nd coming, then 7 years later, Christ come to earth is the second phase of the 2nd coming. Many churches adopted Darby's teaching. That's why during in the late 19th Century and 20th Century many pretribbers saying rapture is not 2nd coming.

That doctrine caused confusion among Christians since late 19th Century to today. That doctrine causes many churches into divisions or split.

How can you be sure that posttrib is a false teaching, while the Bible teaching Christ will come again after the tribulation is so very clear and plain?

There is no evidence that posttrib is a false or dangerous doctrine in the Bible.

I am not saying that pretrib is a false doctrine.

I am trying to telling you, how can you be sure that posttrib is a false doctrine? While the Bible teaches it very clear?

I am telling you that pretrib doctrine have lot of flaws and logicals also theories too. It have lot of holes and problems conflict with the Bible.

I know of many pretribbers would saying to posttrib that Matt 24:36, 42, & 44 tell us, that NO man knows the hour or day when Christ comes, only the Father knows, while Bible saying it will be 1260 days, 1290 days, 1335 days, 42 months, a time, times, and dividing a time, etc.. that a person can countdown toward the 2nd coming is conflict with rapture and Matt 24:36,42,44.

Ok, my question is, does Christ saying Matt 24:36,42, 44 is 'pretrib' rapture? Silence.

Honest, I know NONE of any posttribber claim, know when the date Christ shall come again, myself do not know when Christ comes.

Another way, pretribbers would saying to posttribers, when the Antichrist revealed, then will start to number the countdown of the days toward the 2nd coming, that is conflict with Matt. 24:36,42,44.

The fact is in the past history, many people failed to dated for the rapture/2nd coming, they disobey Matt 24:36,42,44. For example William Miller who was a baptist minister was a partially founder of the seventh day advent church. He announced to his congregation on the date of Christ's coming, I can't remember the exactly date of the year 1843, I think it was during in September. Anyway, William Miller announced his congregation of the date on 2nd coming of Christ. So, his congregation was gathering together outside during late night. They was watching up in the sky waiting for Christ appear, Mr. Miller told them, Christ will come at midnight. But, Christ does not appear past midnight, past several hours. The congregation was very tired and become upset with Mr. Miller. Mr. Miller failed the first attempt. So, Mr. Miller tried AGAIN the second attempt. He announced to his congregation, on the new date for Christ's coming. So, the congregation was gathering together outside during night. They were waiting for Christ to appear in the sky all the night. Christ didn't appear. Most of congregation was MAD and UPSETwith Mr. Miller. Many members left him, his church got into split. Part of his group later established new religion - the seventh day advent church was from a lady named Ellen White. Ellen White was a teenger, she was there during year 1884, that time there was a split of the church.

William Miller was not the alone person to set date for Christ's coming. Even many people made attempt to set date of Christ's coming. All of them failed.

Jehovah Witness did announced the date of Christ's coming in the past. They failed many times.

I forget the name of man who was annouced on the date of rapture in September 1988. He failed, then again he made the second attempt, he failed twice. Then, he stopped it.

What was the foooooolish things what they were doing... Many were quit jobs, wait for Christ come, but Christ didn't appear, they lose money! Stupid!

Same with Matt 24:48-51 tells us, "But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord DELAYETH his coming.(then, what happen?) And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall CUT him ASUNDER, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites there shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."

Matt 24:48-49 is the perfect example of Miller's congregation in year 1844, many of them were smite against Mr. Miller for failed second attempt on the date of Christ's coming, they left him, back to world again.

Many pretribbers even make set the date of Christ's coming, they failed. Do not blame on posttribbers. Many pretribbers made mistakes also.

But, pretibbers might saying to posttribers, they(posttrib) might WILL set the date of Christ's coming when after the Antichrist revealed, that they might be failed later.

Maybe they are right. But, NEVER know what IF some pretribbers would set the date of Christ's coming after the Antichrist revealed. Many will failed.

I rather NOT to set up the date of Christ's coming when after the Antichrist appears. What can I do is, get busy to witness people, serve the Lord, walk godly daily during great tribulation, I do not know when I will die by persecute, the only way is, I must always be ready all the time no matter what happen to me. Rev. 3:2 tells us, we must be watchful and always be ready for death or Christ comes.

Matt 24:36,42,44 do not saying 'pretrib'.

Remind you, the context of Matthew chapter 24, Christ speaks of the only ONE future coming, he does not say about two comings anywhere in the context of Matthew 24.

Matt 24:36,42,44 context with Matt 24:29-31 on the 2nd coming, we only know Christ shall coem again after the tribulaiton, but, we do not know what DAY, HOUR, MONTH, YEAR when Christ comes, we can do is be watch and READY all the time!

How can you be sure that posttrib is a false doctrine, while the Bible teaches us, Christ is again after the tribulation is so very clear and simple?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
I agree 100% with these pictures.

This movie show is
very pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
Seven years after the part shown
Jesus, accompanied by the saints
on WHITE HORSES will return to destroy
the Antichrist - the Second Advent.
Then Jesus will personally reign on
a physical throne of David in a physical
Jerusalem on a physical world for
a physcial 1,000 years (or at least
for a long time).

Maranatha!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Many pretribbers saying rapture is not the second coming. They saying rapture is different from the 2nd coming. If so, tell me, why do you think rapture is not 2nd coming.

We believe the Bible clearly teaches
a seperation. We actually believe that.
I've already given you the verses.
There are two verses that even list
the two events side-by-side,
2 Thessalonains 2:1 and Titus 3:15.

Jesus is coming back to earth to get me.
Jesus is coming back to earth to
destroy the Antichrist.

The scriptures i listed show the
differences between the two events
(even most postribs will tell you they
are two events that both happen the
same literal day):

-------------------------------
Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy.
11SC. Time of sorrow.

-------------------------------

Yes, i am looking forward to Jesus
coming to get me before the Tribulation
period.

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPostTrib: "Remind you, the context of Matthew chapter 24,
Christ speaks of the only ONE future coming, he does not
say about two comings anywhere in the context of Matthew 24."

Ed's short counting lesson:

1. coming to defeat the antichrist
2. coming to get his own.

BTw, in light of the almost 2,000 years between
the first Advent of Jesus and the second Advent of Jesus
a seven year period from start to finish is 0.35 of 1%.

Is it so strange that the Second Coming is seven years long?
The first coming began in Bethelhem on 25 Dec 0001BC
and ended on the Day of Pentacost 0033AD, a period of 33 years.

"Day" in prophecy means "the appropriate time".
"Hour" in prophecy means "the appropriate time".
In God's economy 1 Day = 1 Hour. Oh the riches
of God's grace!

Michelle: In God's economy, when the
written Word is rightly divided, the
Kingdom of God is multiplied! Amen?

 

[michelle]

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

DeafPosttrib,

Wow, that was a very lengthy post (not that mine aren't). I noticed that you are implying that I have said things that indeed I have not said, nor implied. PLease stop doing this. I also would highly recommend to you, to stop believing what everyone else says about this, and go and study the book of Revelation yourself (alone and clear your mind of any preconcieved ideas on it and focus only on what the Lord has said), and referrence those events with the last days prophecies in the Old Testament, as well as in the New Testament. Pray to the Lord Jesus with a sincere heart to know the truth, and he will guide you and show you. Your post seemed to give me the impression that your belief is from others, and not necessarily that of or by your own study and reliance upon the Lord. I am not saying you haven't done this, for I do not know. I just think you seem to be putting too much weight on what others beliefs on this are.

You claim that the belief in the rapture being a separate event from the second coming of Christ was not believed in the churches until Darby. Well, I have heard that it didn't start until Mary Baker Eddy. Does this mean that it is true? Absolutely not. Just because these people predicted the coming of Jesus, and believed in the rapture, and were found to be false prophets make the rapture untrue? No. Many people abuse truths, in fact the devil is very clever and subtile to mislead others into deception of the truth, by very nature of giving the truth 90% and just 10% lies mixed in. The 10% lie in this case would be that of predicting the time that our Lord would come, and this is why the Lord informs us that we do not know the day or hour he comes. This has been put there to protect us from deception, if we believe it. Your claim that the rapture was not believed by the church until this Darby, is inaccurate and untrue. There are writings of early christians who mention the rapture, all the way back to the second century A.D. - Iranius? I cannot remember the name specifically, but I will find some information, weblinks for your informatioin regarding this.

You spoke in the beginning of your post about pictures in relation to the second coming. Are you really serious? Are you basing or confirming your belief, because of some artists rendition of the second coming? We are not to live by sight, but by faith, and to live and believe every word of God that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. YOu do not need some visual aid to help your understanding of God's truth. This is what the Roman Catholics do. We only need God's word of truth, and reliance upon God to give us understanding through prayer and persistant study, and desire to learn and believe.

Please, understand that the tribulation period is the wrath of God. WE are not ordained to the wrath of God, this is why we will not be here during that time, but in heaven with our Lord.

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[DeafPosttrib]

michelle and ed,

I will reply back to you tomorrow night. Because I have go to work tonight - 3rd shift. Tomorrow night and Tuesday night is my off. I will have plenty times to post to reply back to you.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[R. Charles Blair]

Sister Michelle - Grace and truth to you - Here is the quote from Irenaeus ("Against Heresies," from the Ante-Nicene Fathers set, Vol. I, p. 565:

(After referring to Isa. 6:11, 13:9, 26:10, 6:12, and 65:21): ". . . all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in which the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Fahter, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one . . . ."

He also said, p. 557 of the same volume: "And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up,and rendered fine,and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God,and set on fire, they may be fitted for the royal banquet." He then goes on to quote Ignatius, when he was condemned to the wild beasts for his testimony: "I am the wheat of Christ, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I maybe found the pure bread of God."

One may quote the "Fathers" on almost every side of almost every issue, but I have fine-tooth-combed the 6 volume set without finding a pre-trib rapturist among them.

Aren't we both glad they are not the final authority! Best in Him - Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

[michelle]

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!


Ed,
--------------------------------------------------
Ed quoted:
Michelle: In God's economy, when the
written Word is rightly divided, the
Kingdom of God is multiplied! Amen?
--------------------------------------------------

AMEN!!!! I agree and great post.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle