Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

[Yeshua1]

I only accept what scripture clearly teaches. Inferred doctrine are just that, inferred doctrines.

Such as the Ttrinity?

 

[1689Dave]

Such as the Ttrinity?

The trinity is clearly taught but the name trinity is fabricated to summarize what is taught.

 

[Yeshua1]

The trinity is clearly taught but the name trinity is fabricated to summarize what is taught.

So trinity is not a good term to use?

 

[Covenanter]

No, the first resurrection is for Christians and Jews saved under the old covenant. The second resurrection is for the non-Christians.

You mentioned it yourself above: Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The people in the second resurrection will face the second death.

Please study the teaching of Jesus in John 5 concerning salvation & a resurrection for all.

 

[1689Dave]

So trinity is not a good term to use?

I think it works because everyone know what you are talking about. Disciples being called Christians etc.

 

[Yeshua1]

Please study the teaching of Jesus in John 5 concerning salvation & a resurrection for all.

Have you studied the firstand second resurrctions in revealtion 0? As both of them were physically resurrected bodies each time!

 

[HankD]

I only accept what scripture clearly teaches. Inferred doctrine are just that, inferred doctrines.

Show me where the Scripture expressly defines the Trinity.

 

[HankD]

I think it works because everyone know what you are talking about. Disciples being called Christians etc.

The doctrine of the Trinity is an inferred doctrine distilled from many passages of scripture.

It took 300 years for an official pronouncement of the Trinitarian Dogma.

Are you a Trinitarian?

The trinity is clearly taught but the name trinity is fabricated to summarize what is taught.

Show me the scripture which clearly teaches the Trinity without inference.

 

[Covenanter]

Have you studied the firstand second resurrctions in revealtion 0? As both of them were physically resurrected bodies each time!

revealtion 0 isn't in the Bible.
I have however studied & considered in detail the two resurrections in Revelation 20.
Please read on, think as you read, check with the Scriptures & consider the nature of the two resurrections as taught by the LORD Jesus in John 25.

Is the resurrection of souls physical? Is the conversion resurrection - The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live - physical?

And is the resurrection of John 5:28-29 which takes place in a coming hour two resurrections separated by 1,000 years?

Well, if we can say that the first resurrection is at the end of the battle of Armageddon and the second resurrection is a thousand years later, we have the time frame of a post-tribulation pre-millennial Blessed Hope. Is it spelled out in the words of the theological debate--no, but as Oswald Smith says, "Recently I got hold of that remarkable book “Tribulation to Glory” by H. A. Baker, in which he wrote: “For eighteen centuries the fundamental principle of tribulation to glory was the universal belief of the truly born-again members of the Church...."

IF .......
However John wrote -

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
​

John saw the souls of the dead faithful reigning with Christ in glory. He then makes the first resurrection general (he that has part); that those resurrected are protected from the second death & that they shall be priests of God & of Christ.

How can we enjoy the first resurrection & so be protected from the second death, aka hell? Only by salvation by faith in Christ.

How can we have the position of being priests of God & of Christ? That is the privileged position of all believers - our position! - as John writes in his introduction -

Rev. 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
​

Peter confirms this understanding -

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.​

Jesus explained the 2 resurrections of soul & body thus -

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
.....
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.​

So the clear teaching of our LORD Jesus is of two resurrections, the first being spiritual - conversion & the second being the general resurrection of the body for the final judgment.

So the dead believers are living & reigning with their Saviour in glory, awaiting resurrection of the body, & final vindication.

Meanwhile during the 1,000 years ..... Jesus, the Lion-Lamb has triumphed & is delivering Satan's captives by the Gospel. Binding Satan does not change the hearts, intentions etc, of wicked men. (Rev. 22:11a) The Gospel does that, as sinners respond to the call to "come." (Rev. 22:17)

It should now be clear that the 1,000 years is the present indefinite Gospel age, during which once dead sinners are born of the Spirit & saved from hell. They witness, stand faithfully, & are persecuted, & their souls enter glory in the presence of their Saviour.

Peter confirms this understanding in his second letter.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up​

It is possible that Peter & John discussed this, as Revelation was written to teach & encourage believers who were suffering tribulation at the hands of the ungodly.

Peter is writing to warn against the scoffers of his day - Jews who knew Jesus prophecy of his coming in clouds to destroy the temple & judge the remnant of this generation who were scoffing against Jesus' prophecy, in effect saying "our fathers are dead, Jerusalem & the temple stand secure. We are living proof of the failure of Jesus as a prophet.

2 Peter 3:3 knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.​

The prophecy of Revelation was given to encourage suffering believers that the prophesied judgments were about to happen.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.​

The doctrine of a future millennium, in which things are predicted to happen that are the present experience of believers, amounts to a serious departure from the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles.

 

[1689Dave]

The doctrine of the Trinity is an inferred doctrine distilled from many passages of scripture.

It took 300 years for an official pronouncement of the Trinitarian Dogma.

Are you a Trinitarian?



Show me the scripture which clearly teaches the Trinity without inference.

The doctrine is clearly taught in scripture. The debates refuted the unscriptural notions about ti that surfaced.

 

[1689Dave]

Show me where the Scripture expressly defines the Trinity.

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,” (Matthew 28:19)

“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:16–17)

“Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own initiative, but the Father residing in me performs his miraculous deeds.” (John 14:10)

“Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and take up residence with him.” (John 14:23)

““I have spoken these things while staying with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and will cause you to remember everything I said to you.” (John 14:25–26)

Here's a few.

 

[HankD]

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,” (Matthew 28:19)

“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:16–17)

“Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own initiative, but the Father residing in me performs his miraculous deeds.” (John 14:10)

“Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and take up residence with him.” (John 14:23)

““I have spoken these things while staying with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and will cause you to remember everything I said to you.” (John 14:25–26)

Here's a few.

Not any one of these verses explicitly defines the Trinity as 3 distinct persons in one divine essence but must be inferred from these and several others - the 1st chapter of Hebrews being of great importance.

So why then do you object to an inferred "rapture"?

Actually the "rapture" is clearly taught in one passage of scripture.

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

caught up - Grk: ἁρπάζω harpazo

The word "rapture" comes from the Latin Vulgate version of this passage :
VUL 1 Thessalonians 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

Discovered by Jesuit priests they were those who named the "catching away" of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as "Rapturo".

This word harpazo and "rap" Latin stems is the semantic origin of "the rapture" of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.


Other uses:

Acts 6:12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,
Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Acts 27:15 And when the ship was caught, and could not bear up into the wind, we let her drive.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

It's not that important to me Dave what you do or don't believe about "the rapture" of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

What's important is that there are many church dogma that are distilled from an inference of multiple scripture.
Though you are reluctant to admit it "Trinity" is one such doctrine.

BTW I am an unyielding believer of the Trinity and defining doctrine.
Not so much the details of the happenings surrounding the "rap*" event of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

 

[tyndale1946]

I only accept what scripture clearly teaches. Inferred doctrine are just that, inferred doctrines.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Since John is not my brother and companion in tribulation, he's sure not talking to me but the book of Revelation does apply to us if we use it right... John audience was fist century Christian going through intense persecution, that we cannot even comprehend... Our trials and tribulation are nothing compared to theirs... When we go through our trials and tribulation John tells us there is only one place to look... Look to the risen Christ, he is our only sanctuary... Brother Glen

 

[church mouse guy]

They said no scripture supports any of the three tribulation related views.

We cannot honestly say this. What we can safely say is; The resurrection of the Just happens on the last day, followed by the rapture, followed by the resurrection of the wicked, followed but the judgement and explosion of the universe, followed by the new heavens and earth. = no millennium (physical worldly kingdom of sin and death or animal sacrifices).

Not true.

 

[church mouse guy]

Please study the teaching of Jesus in John 5 concerning salvation & a resurrection for all.

What is your point?

 

[1689Dave]

Not true.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

 

[1689Dave]

Not any one of these verses explicitly defines the Trinity as 3 distinct persons in one divine essence but must be inferred from these and several others - the 1st chapter of Hebrews being of great importance.

So why then do you object to an inferred "rapture"?

Actually the "rapture" is clearly taught in one passage of scripture.

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

caught up - Grk: ἁρπάζω harpazo

The word "rapture" comes from the Latin Vulgate version of this passage :
VUL 1 Thessalonians 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

Discovered by Jesuit priests they were those who named the "catching away" of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as "Rapturo".

This word harpazo and "rap" Latin stems is the semantic origin of "the rapture" of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.


Other uses:

Acts 6:12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,
Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Acts 27:15 And when the ship was caught, and could not bear up into the wind, we let her drive.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

It's not that important to me Dave what you do or don't believe about "the rapture" of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

What's important is that there are many church dogma that are distilled from an inference of multiple scripture.
Though you are reluctant to admit it "Trinity" is one such doctrine.

BTW I am an unyielding believer of the Trinity and defining doctrine.
Not so much the details of the happenings surrounding the "rap*" event of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

These verses explicitly define the 1 God as 3 persons. Unless you have blinders on.

 

[church mouse guy]

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

What are you trying to say? I already stated that I have a Ladd book on the Second Advent and I linked Canadian preacher Oswald Smith from 90 years ago so explain what you are trying to prove.

 

[Yeshua1]

revealtion 0 isn't in the Bible.
I have however studied & considered in detail the two resurrections in Revelation 20.
Please read on, think as you read, check with the Scriptures & consider the nature of the two resurrections as taught by the LORD Jesus in John 25.

Is the resurrection of souls physical? Is the conversion resurrection - The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live - physical?

And is the resurrection of John 5:28-29 which takes place in a coming hour two resurrections separated by 1,000 years?

We have to explain how there can be such a time period between the 2 resurretions, and the solution is that there is one for the saved, and later on just for the lost!

 

[Yeshua1]

Not any one of these verses explicitly defines the Trinity as 3 distinct persons in one divine essence but must be inferred from these and several others - the 1st chapter of Hebrews being of great importance.

So why then do you object to an inferred "rapture"?

Actually the "rapture" is clearly taught in one passage of scripture.

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

caught up - Grk: ἁρπάζω harpazo

The word "rapture" comes from the Latin Vulgate version of this passage :
VUL 1 Thessalonians 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

Discovered by Jesuit priests they were those who named the "catching away" of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as "Rapturo".

This word harpazo and "rap" Latin stems is the semantic origin of "the rapture" of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.


Other uses:

Acts 6:12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,
Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Acts 27:15 And when the ship was caught, and could not bear up into the wind, we let her drive.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

It's not that important to me Dave what you do or don't believe about "the rapture" of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

What's important is that there are many church dogma that are distilled from an inference of multiple scripture.
Though you are reluctant to admit it "Trinity" is one such doctrine.

BTW I am an unyielding believer of the Trinity and defining doctrine.
Not so much the details of the happenings surrounding the "rap*" event of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

I believe the term used is "caught up/snatched away"