Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

[Covenanter]

I'll deal with several related posts together -

Please study the teaching of Jesus in John 5:24-29 concerning salvation & a resurrection for all.

What is your point?

Jesus in John 5 speaks of spiritual resurrection at conversion & a final bodily resurrection for judgment - life or damnation.

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No, the first resurrection is for Christians and Jews saved under the old covenant. The second resurrection is for the non-Christians.

You mentioned it yourself above: Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The people in the second resurrection will face the second death.

The first resurrection is for all & only believers - it is seen by John (Rev. 20) as a spiritual resurrection of souls to reign with Christ in heaven. Jesus describes as conversion, when dead sinners hear his voice & live, John 5:24-25, taking place as he spoke - and now is. Paul confirms this truth in Eph. 2. Many other Scriptures speak of salvation being eternal life, born again, & baptism figures that truth. Rom. 6:1 makes that point very strongly, as does Col 3:

12 buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;​

The only people not suffering the second death are the souls who have enjoyed the first resurrection, aka salvation, aka new life by faith in Christ. These have their names in the book of life. Rev. 20:15. John continues with a vision of the NH&NE, the new, heavenly Jerusalem of which we are citizens. (Gal. 4, Heb. 12:18-28 .)

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

This seems to be the generally used proof-text for the rapture, but it is of all believers, the souls rising first, immediately before the living are caught up together with them. It takes place at the return/coming of the LORD Jesus for resurrection & judgment on the same occasion as Jesus final coming for sudden destruction of the wicked.

Note that 1 Thes. 4 is followed by ch. 5 which begins -

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.​

Paul repeats the "watch & pray etc" admonition to believers that concludes Jesus Olivet prophecy.

We have to explain how there can be such a time period between the 2 resurretions, and the solution is that there is one for the saved, and later on just for the lost!

No! The time period between the first & second resurrections is the whole Gospel age, so far 1,900 years for first century believers & one day for those converted before Jesus final coming. (2 Peter 3) A spiritual resurrection for believers throughout the Gospel age, & a general resurrection when Jesus comes for resurrection & judgment, to establish the NH&NE.

Note what Jesus said -

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.​

 

[AV]

The pre-tribulation rapture of the church is the teaching of scripture when rightly divided. It needs to be approached as the Jews should have approached the study of the first coming of Christ. There were 2 sets of prophecies which did not seem to be compatible but even contradictory (Jn.12:34, Mt.11:3, Ac.1:6) concerning Christ suffering and dying for sins but destroying the wicked out of the land and reigning as King over all the earth. You must understand the mystery of the body of Christ and the nation of Israel to correctly understand prophecy.
I would invite you read the scriptures more closely. There are too many to post here but I have done that here:
conceal a thing
Also answer common objections to a pretrib rapture here:
conceal a thing: rapture

 

[Yeshua1]

The first resurrection is the new birth completed in the resurrection of the body on the last day. The resurrections of the just and the wicked are not 1000 years apart, but perhaps an hour or so on the last day. When John speaks of the first resurrection he speaks of the new birth where we are presently seated with Christ on David's throne in heaven as his body.

The first resurrection would be all the saints only, at time of the Second Coming, as its the physical resurrection of the glorified body!
Second one is just for thelost, as its the GWT one...

 

[Yeshua1]

I'll deal with several related posts together -





Jesus in John 5 speaks of spiritual resurrection at conversion & a final bodily resurrection for judgment - life or damnation.



The first resurrection is for all & only believers - it is seen by John (Rev. 20) as a spiritual resurrection of souls to reign with Christ in heaven. Jesus describes as conversion, when dead sinners hear his voice & live, John 5:24-25, taking place as he spoke - and now is. Paul confirms this truth in Eph. 2. Many other Scriptures speak of salvation being eternal life, born again, & baptism figures that truth. Rom. 6:1 makes that point very strongly, as does Col 3:

12 buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;​

The only people not suffering the second death are the souls who have enjoyed the first resurrection, aka salvation, aka new life by faith in Christ. These have their names in the book of life. Rev. 20:15. John continues with a vision of the NH&NE, the new, heavenly Jerusalem of which we are citizens. (Gal. 4, Heb. 12:18-28 .)



This seems to be the generally used proof-text for the rapture, but it is of all believers, the souls rising first, immediately before the living are caught up together with them. It takes place at the return/coming of the LORD Jesus for resurrection & judgment on the same occasion as Jesus final coming for sudden destruction of the wicked.

Note that 1 Thes. 4 is followed by ch. 5 which begins -

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.​

Paul repeats the "watch & pray etc" admonition to believers that concludes Jesus Olivet prophecy.



No! The time period between the first & second resurrections is the whole Gospel age, so far 1,900 years for first century believers & one day for those converted before Jesus final coming. (2 Peter 3) A spiritual resurrection for believers throughout the Gospel age, & a general resurrection when Jesus comes for resurrection & judgment, to establish the NH&NE.

Note what Jesus said -

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.​

BOTH the first and second ones are physical/bodily resurrections!

 

[1689Dave]

The first resurrection would be all the saints only, at time of the Second Coming, as its the physical resurrection of the glorified body!
Second one is just for thelost, as its the GWT one...

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29) = 2 resurrections on the same day.

 

[Covenanter]

The first resurrection would be all the saints only, at time of the Second Coming, as its the physical resurrection of the glorified body!
Second one is just for thelost, as its the GWT one..

BOTH the first and second ones are physical/bodily resurrection.

Read my post above - #61 - and read the Scripture I refer you to. If you disagree, refer to Scripture, not just tweet.

 

[Yeshua1]

The pre-tribulation rapture of the church is the teaching of scripture when rightly divided. It needs to be approached as the Jews should have approached the study of the first coming of Christ. There were 2 sets of prophecies which did not seem to be compatible but even contradictory (Jn.12:34, Mt.11:3, Ac.1:6) concerning Christ suffering and dying for sins but destroying the wicked out of the land and reigning as King over all the earth. You must understand the mystery of the body of Christ and the nation of Israel to correctly understand prophecy.
I would invite you read the scriptures more closely. There are too many to post here but I have done that here:
conceal a thing
Also answer common objections to a pretrib rapture here:
conceal a thing: rapture

I once held to it, but now hold to Historical preMil view, but still see a gap of 1000 years between 2 resurrection events!

 

[Yeshua1]

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29) = 2 resurrections on the same day.

the principle is 2 resurrections, and John in Revelation fills in the time frame involved!

 

[Yeshua1]

Read my post above - #61 - and read the Scripture I refer you to. If you disagree, refer to Scripture, not just tweet.

The Second Coming described by paul in Thessolonians involved a physical resurrection, not a spiritual one!

 

[1689Dave]

The Second Coming described by paul in Thessolonians involved a physical resurrection, not a spiritual one!

“Having been buried with him in baptism, you also have been raised with him through your faith in the power of God who raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12)

“And even though you were dead in your transgressions and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he nevertheless made you alive with him, having forgiven all your transgressions.” (Colossians 2:13)

“even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!—and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:5–6)

 

[AV]

You should also see a distinction between the body of Christ, his church dwelling in his city New Jerusalem and Israel his people dwelling in the land of promise. There are other gaps in scripture, notably between the 1st and 2nd comings of Christ which is the church age:
conceal a thing

 

[Covenanter]

The Second Coming described by paul in Thessolonians involved a physical resurrection, not a spiritual one!

Agreed - now go back & read my post #61 & look up & consider the Scriptures cited.

It will take you more than 10 minutes.

 

[1689Dave]

You should also see a distinction between the body of Christ, his church dwelling in his city New Jerusalem and Israel his people dwelling in the land of promise. There are other gaps in scripture, notably between the 1st and 2nd comings of Christ which is the church age:
conceal a thing

Artificial Gaps can twist scripture especially in Daniel 9

 

[Yeshua1]

“Having been buried with him in baptism, you also have been raised with him through your faith in the power of God who raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12)

“And even though you were dead in your transgressions and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he nevertheless made you alive with him, having forgiven all your transgressions.” (Colossians 2:13)

“even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!—and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:5–6)

We are with jesus in a spiritual sense right now, but we will also have the physical resurrection at His second coming also!

 

[AV]

Dave,
I gave 11 examples, notably between the 1st and 2nd comings of Christ which cannot be gainsayed. Perhaps you should look the passages up for yourself:
conceal a thing

 

[1689Dave]

Dave,
I gave 11 examples, notably between the 1st and 2nd comings of Christ which cannot be gainsayed. Perhaps you should look the passages up for yourself:
conceal a thing

Some gaps exist in scripture obviously. But when scripture does not mention a gap and we insert one, we are working for the devil.

 

[AV]

Dave,
Where in 10 of those examples (you reject 1) do you see it specified that there is a gap? If you were a first century Jew reading about the coming of the Messiah you would accuse the New Testament writers of working for the devil by saying there will be a 2nd coming of the Messiah thus introducing a gap. The disciples didn't even understand this in Acts 1:6 and Jesus said the Spirit would teach them of things they could not bear at that time (Jn.16:12). But we should know by now (Heb.5:12-14)

 

[1689Dave]

Dave,
Where in 10 of those examples (you reject 1) do you see it specified that there is a gap? If you were a first century Jew reading about the coming of the Messiah you would accuse the New Testament writers of working for the devil by saying there will be a 2nd coming of the Messiah thus introducing a gap. The disciples didn't even understand this in Acts 1:6 and Jesus said the Spirit would teach them of things they could not bear at that time (Jn.16:12). But we should know by now (Heb.5:12-14)

Having a gap in my front teeth doesn't mean everyone has a gap in their front teeth.

 

[AV]

Dave,
You have insinuated I am working for the devil without demonstrating it from the scriptures I posted. I will leave you to do the subsequent study to reinforce this.

 

[1689Dave]

Dave,
You have insinuated I am working for the devil without demonstrating it from the scriptures I posted. I will leave you to do the subsequent study to reinforce this.

You need to prove from scripture a gap exists in the 70 weeks.