Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

[1689Dave]

What are you trying to say? I already stated that I have a Ladd book on the Second Advent and I linked Canadian preacher Oswald Smith from 90 years ago so explain what you are trying to prove.

They pulled Walvoord's book off the market and produced "sterilized" second edition. My quotes are from the original.

 

[Yeshua1]

What are you trying to say? I already stated that I have a Ladd book on the Second Advent and I linked Canadian preacher Oswald Smith from 90 years ago so explain what you are trying to prove.

Doesn't he see AD 70 as time when prophecy was fulfilled?

 

[church mouse guy]

They pulled Walvoord's book off the market and produced "sterilized" second edition. My quotes are from the original.

Oh, that is interesting. I was surprised at your first quotation by Walvoord. People who believe in pre-trib usually consider all other views heretical in my experience.

What event do you think precedes the first resurrection?

 

[1689Dave]

Oh, that is interesting. I was surprised at your first quotation by Walvoord. People who believe in pre-trib usually consider all other views heretical in my experience.

What event do you think precedes the first resurrection?

It can happen today.

 

[tyndale1946]

It can happen today.

There is more than the final resurrection, It happens everyday, children of God are resurrected everyday to newness of life... Brother Glen

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Reynolds]

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

“The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.”

“Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.”

“The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.”

“It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says the same:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack). “That’s Not in the Bible” Gary DeMar

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these?

If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

Obviously, if Scripture were plain about it, we wouldn't be arguing about it.

 

[HankD]

These verses explicitly define the 1 God as 3 persons. Unless you have blinders on.

There is no need for ad hominem type statements.

Note that you used "verses" plural, and in so doing you proved the point I was attempting to make.

This is my point Again - there are several NT concepts especially within the realm of eschatology as well as others (e.g. The Kenosis, the Hypostatic Union, etc)
which depend on an inference of more than one verse of scripture in response to your statement that you did not accept teachings which come from inference.

That is all.

 

[HankD]

I believe the term used is "caught up/snatched away"

Y - that is why I supplied the verses to illustrate its usage.

 

[church mouse guy]

It can happen today.

So you are pre-trib. Why don't you just say so up front?

 

[1689Dave]

So you are pre-trib. Why don't you just say so up front?

The rapture happens AFTER the resurrection.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

 

[1689Dave]

There is more than the final resurrection, It happens everyday, children of God are resurrected everyday to newness of life... Brother Glen

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Yes, the New Birth begins the resurrection completed on the last day with the resurrection of our bodies.

 

[church mouse guy]

The rapture happens AFTER the resurrection.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

So to understand you correctly, you would not say that the resurrection of the saved dead and the living Christians are simultaneous?

If you look at Revelation 19, as I am sure that you have, you will see that Jesus, the Blessed Hope, returns to fight the battle of Armageddon. And then Satan was locked up in hell for a thousand years. And then was the first resurrection.

Titus 2:13 (KJV) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

If you are pre-trib, okay with me. I lost interest in dispensationalism a few years ago. Since I was fortunate enough to visit Kentucky almost a year ago, I have become quite interested in young earth creationism (YEC). That doctrine also makes people very angry and so one has to keep it to one's self in American churches, also. There were some English clergy who never adopted Darwin in the early 19th century, and perhaps some in the USA whose names have been lost. Dr. Terry Mortenson of www.answersingenesis.org listed these men in a doctoral thesis that he wrote while living and studying in England at Coventry University: Granville Penn (1761-1844), George Bugg (1769-1851), Andrew Ure (1778-1857), George Fairholme )1789-1846), John Murray (1786?-1851), George Young (1772-1848), William Rhind (1797-1874) [from The Great Turning Point]. As you can see the British foisted not only Darby off on the church but also Darwin in the nineteenth century.

 

[1689Dave]

So to understand you correctly, you would not say that the resurrection of the saved dead and the living Christians are simultaneous?

If you look at Revelation 19, as I am sure that you have, you will see that Jesus, the Blessed Hope, returns to fight the battle of Armageddon. And then Satan was locked up in hell for a thousand years. And then was the first resurrection.

Titus 2:13 (KJV) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

If you are pre-trib, okay with me. I lost interest in dispensationalism a few years ago. Since I was fortunate enough to visit Kentucky almost a year ago, I have become quite interested in young earth creationism (YEC). That doctrine also makes people very angry and so one has to keep it to one's self in American churches, also. There were some English clergy who never adopted Darwin in the early 19th century, and perhaps some in the USA whose names have been lost. Dr. Terry Mortenson of www.answersingenesis.org listed these men in a doctoral thesis that he wrote while living and studying in England at Coventry University: Granville Penn (1761-1844), George Bugg (1769-1851), Andrew Ure (1778-1857), George Fairholme )1789-1846), John Murray (1786?-1851), George Young (1772-1848), William Rhind (1797-1874) [from The Great Turning Point]. As you can see the British foisted not only Darby off on the church but also Darwin in the nineteenth century.

Paul says the rapture follows the resurrection of the righteous dead. “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

This happens on the same day according to Jesus.“And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.” (John 6:39)ESV

This would precede the resurrection of the wicked. “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

 

[church mouse guy]

Paul says the rapture follows the resurrection of the righteous dead. “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

This happens on the same day according to Jesus.“And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.” (John 6:39)ESV

This would precede the resurrection of the wicked. “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)

Isn't that what I said?

I am trying to see if you have a timetable for the first resurrection and the return of the Blessed Hope or if you are promoting the agenda of the Englishman Darby, not that I care about that point of theology because Americans will attack anyone who does not believe with Darby.

 

[1689Dave]

Isn't that what I said?

I am trying to see if you have a timetable for the first resurrection and the return of the Blessed Hope or if you are promoting the agenda of the Englishman Darby, not that I care about that point of theology because Americans will attack anyone who does not believe with Darby.

The resurrection happens on the last day and it is the restoration of Israel (God's elect in Christ). This happens in the new heavens and earth that emerges as this present universe explodes in fire according to Peter. It can happen any time now with nothing needing fulfillment that precedes it.

 

[church mouse guy]

The resurrection happens on the last day and it is the restoration of Israel (God's elect in Christ). This happens in the new heavens and earth that emerges as this present universe explodes in fire according to Peter. It can happen any time now with nothing needing fulfillment that precedes it.

Yeah, that's John Nelson Darby, born in Westminster and died in Bournemouth. Revelation says that the second resurrection happens a thousand years after the first, but Darby did his own thing I guess.

 

[1689Dave]

Yeah, that's John Nelson Darby, born in Westminster and died in Bournemouth. Revelation says that the second resurrection happens a thousand years after the first, but Darby did his own thing I guess.

The first resurrection is the new birth completed in the resurrection of the body on the last day. The resurrections of the just and the wicked are not 1000 years apart, but perhaps an hour or so on the last day. When John speaks of the first resurrection he speaks of the new birth where we are presently seated with Christ on David's throne in heaven as his body.

 

[church mouse guy]

The first resurrection is the new birth completed in the resurrection of the body on the last day. The resurrections of the just and the wicked are not 1000 years apart, but perhaps an hour or so on the last day. When John speaks of the first resurrection he speaks of the new birth where we are presently seated with Christ on David's throne in heaven as his body.

Is that in your first edition that was later taken out of subsequent editions?

 

[1689Dave]

Is that in your first edition that was later taken out of subsequent editions?

The removed Walvoord's admission that scripture does not support a pre-trib rapture.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeah, that's John Nelson Darby, born in Westminster and died in Bournemouth. Revelation says that the second resurrection happens a thousand years after the first, but Darby did his own thing I guess.

Actually histprical PreMil holds with the 1000 years also, and some of the ECF held to that viewpoint, 1800 years before Darby even was born!