Do Brits get their dispensationalism directly from John Nelson Darby or did it cross the Atlantic to Scofield and then return to the UK?
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Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists
- Thread starter 1689Dave
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1689Dave
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I think they got it on their side of the pond because it influenced the Balfour declaration that is behind Zionism which is behind much of the tensions in the Middle East.
Dan.9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Israel is not yet saved (mystery- Rom.11:21-9, Rev.7:1-8) One week remains after the cutting off of Messiah for the 'time of Jacob's trouble' (thy people and upon thy holy city). Jesus warned about the abomination the maketh desolate of Daniel yet to come (Mt.24:15) and the proceeding global signs yet to occur (see the verses on the rapture I posted). From which trouble we can escape (Lk.21:34-6).
But I know you specified Daniel 9 only to take a preterist stand as you feel safe here. But read the other scriptures as well.
Israel is not yet saved (mystery- Rom.11:21-9, Rev.7:1-8) One week remains after the cutting off of Messiah for the 'time of Jacob's trouble' (thy people and upon thy holy city). Jesus warned about the abomination the maketh desolate of Daniel yet to come (Mt.24:15) and the proceeding global signs yet to occur (see the verses on the rapture I posted). From which trouble we can escape (Lk.21:34-6).
But I know you specified Daniel 9 only to take a preterist stand as you feel safe here. But read the other scriptures as well.
ASre you saying those holding to pre trib views are heeding the devil?
The jews have the right to the land of Palestine, given to them by God, and main trouble is islam pretty much wants to see them killed off!
But the UK is notorious nowadays for hating Jews and when they got the League of Nations mandate after Allenby took Jerusalem in 1917, the rank and file UK army officers disobeyed the League of Nations, so are we dealing with apostasy at that time perhaps from the corrosive effect of Darwin or are we dealing with an Evangelicalism in the UK that was just too weak to do much more than the Balfour Declaration? Is John Nelson Darby still influential in the UK? Here in the USA, dispensationalism is one hundred percent among Pentecostals and Fundamentalists but only ninety-nine percent among Evangelicals excluding Pentecostals. I just say to Dispensationalists, no, you will never have to face the anti-Christ because Scofield....
Preterists have trouble with Israel being a strong people in these last days (Dan.8:24,12:7, Dt.4:30), and all the nations of the earth confronted with Jerusalem (Lk.21:20-24 like we see materializing before our eyes) when the Lord shows up (Zech 12:2-10, 14:2-4). It makes no sense to them since God is supposed to be finished with the Jews. Again they fail to understand the mystery- Rom.11.
Exactly! Even when you can demonstrate that they are not the same in the bible:
conceal a thing
conceal a thing
It came via Scofield as a result of the fundamentalism movement that showed Scripture to be reliable. The "downgrade" of the UK churches was the result of 19th c modernism across the denominations, both Darwinism & higher criticism. Scofield's dispensationalism was secondary to his Biblical views, but had its influence as his one-volume commentary became popular.
While Jews have been persecuted down the ages, the UK evangelicals are not "Jew haters." After the formation of the state of Israel, there was general support from evangelicals as it was seen to be an indication of the soon return of the Lord Jesus. Increasing it has become apparent that the state of Israel in its actions against the people of Palestine they are displacing (including Christians) is contrary to the OT teaching, & many do not recognise it as the fulfilment of prophecy.
At the time Scofield, & US fundamentalism were making headway here in the 1920s, Bible believing evangelicals in the denominations were separating from the denomations & forming independent groups. These were drawn together as the "Fellowship of Evangelical Churches" formed in 1922. The founder, Poole-Connor was a dispensationalist, but the concensus of the leaders coming together was that to include a dipensation clause in the doctrinal basis would be divisive & the doctrine of the second coming was & is deliberately ambiguous.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20) They are not to any who are not not attached to Christ.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The add to Revelation. And destroy Daniel 9 by inserting a gap that either results in Christ not paying for our sins. Or they make him out to be the Antichrist.
Thanks for adding higher criticism, which I did not think of, and thanks for a good answer! Darwinism is widespread here but I myself was fortunate enough to come into contact with Australian Ken Ham's Creation Museum in Petersburg, Kentucky, and his Ark Encounter (Noah's Ark) in Williamstown, Kentucky, all about forty miles south of Cincinnati, Ohio. They don't have a siege mentality and seem to have adequate financial backing so that they have a good organization. For a video tour of the Noah's Ark, that includes almost all of the Ark, view:
God is not done dealing with national israel!
They are saying none of the above!
1689Dave
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Christ is Israel along with those united to him in faith. The broken off Jews are not biblical Israel. But God will reattach them to Israel through faith in Christ. (Romans 11).
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
That's how it works out. They do exactly that. Turn Jesus into Antichrist, or show that he did not pay for our sins yet when the insert a gap into the 70 weeks.
The remaining week to them is 7 years of the great tribulation, where do you you see the Great tribulation period?
Before examining in detail, I would submit a basic tension between NOW & NOT YET -
1. The LORD is king over all the earth, Jesus is King of kings & Lord of lords, yet until he returns there are many lords & kings;
2. As he died, Jesus declared "it is finished" - all the work of salvation, yet 2,000 years the work of salvation is being put into effect by the Gospel;
3. Jesus spoke of coming in clouds before the passing of the generation that rejected him (see the many denunciations of "this generation") with plenty of signs indicating that the destruction was imminent, as well as a final coming to effect the passing of heaven & earth. The destruction took place according to the prophecy, yet we are still waiting for his coming, & of course only at his final coming will the destruction of the wicked be complete.
4. I think you are reading a lot of time gaps in Scripture where no gap is stated, where the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ effectively begins with his resurrection & ascension & continues until he returns & he returns the kingdom to his Father.
My comments on some of your points in red -
Isa.61:1-2- Where it is quoted by Christ (Luke 4:17-20) the "day of vengeance" has not yet occurred 2000 years later. So a 2000 year gap
Jesus apparently stopped reading before proclaiming the day of vengeance. In any case, he could have proclaimed the day of vengeance as coming on those who rejected him, as it did, 40 years later.
Isa.9:6-7- We again see a 2000 year gap from the Mighty God being born as a child, and his reigning over the house of David which has yet to occur.
Peter declares in Acts 2 that Jesus did ascend to David's throne, & his Kingdom is still increasing. No gap, but a continuous reign.
Matt.3:10-12 Christ came to baptize with the Holy Ghost and 2000 years later with fire in judgment.
Dan.9:26-7 Is very important in understanding last days events. But it is well known and taught by pre-trib scholars that the 69 weeks of years have already past with the Messiah being cut off. There remains 1 more week of years for Israel; again a 2000 year gap.
The whole 70 weeks prophecy begins by Gabriel declaring that 70 weeks will see the saving work of the Anointed One, Messiah. Jesus Christ.
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
That saving work was finished at Calvary. After the 69th week (but not necessarily during the 70th week) the events of verses 26-27 occur, so allow a gap before the events but not allowing a gap between weeks 69 & 70. The destruction took place 35 years later in AD 70.
Messiah was cut off in the middle of the 70th week. He spent his ministry living according to every provision of the Old Covenant, & suffered for Israel's/our disobedience to it. Thus he spent the half week of his earthly ministry confirming the Covenant with those who responded to his ministry, ending the sacrifice & oblation by rending the temple veil. The remainder of the 70th week from Pentecost the New Covenant Gospel was proclaimed.
When Stephen was accused, speaking by the Holy Spirit, he declared the Jews who resisted the Holy Spirit "uncircumcised." The covenant they relied on was ended. All that remain for Israel as a rebellious nation was "that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
I don't think I need to answer all the points. You have made your understanding clear, but I have carefully considered your points & do not agree.
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