You are quite correct.
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Rebel not.
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So, what should we base doctrine on? I am not going to base it on you.
Romans 16
I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
8 Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
9 Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.
10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household.
11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
12 Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
14 Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.
15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (the adherents of the demonic doctrine of papacy)
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan(the head of the apostate church of Rome) under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
21 Timotheus my workfellow, and Lucius, and Jason, and Sosipater, my kinsmen, salute you.
22 I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.
23 Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother.
24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
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Oops!
You are quite right. He was Rector of Prague University and Prague is the Capital of the Czech Republic, not Hungary. I often confuse middle European countries (amongst other things).Traditional interpretation of Scripture.
And universality. If you follow doctrines that were believed universally you are safe.
The reason is because of Jesus promise, the church can not be universally deceived even for a short time. It would mean the gates of Hell did prevail against it His Church, which would mean Jesus promise was false. Which can never be so.
Baptism being regenerational was a universal Christian belief. And given to infants. Universal belief. Whole Church.
The Eucharist. Universal belief. Whole Church.
Confession to a priest. Universal belief. Whole Church.
Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Universal belief. Whole Church.
To name a few.
These were universal beliefs of Christianity from the start. Universal beliefs are different because they carry the infallibility of Christ’s promise. It’s Jesus loving sign posts how He guides little children, the humble and the simple.
Find Christian beliefs that were once held universally, you are safe, you’ll be Catholic, but you’ll be safe.
37818
Well-Known Member
Not what is taught in the written word of God.
The Church always and universally interpreted Jesus words in Scripture “ born again of water and Spirit “ as being baptismal regeneration.
East to West all the Churches agreed universally, the Whole Church, the Whole Body of Christ universally, for the first 1500 + years.
When did the new doctrine of symbolic baptism get invented.
Ulrich Zwingli knew better than all planetary Christianity from the beginning and decided off his own authority to call baptism symbolic, same with the Eucharist.
Zwingli put his own interpretation of Scripture above all Christianity past and present. Even the other reformers were shocked at this new teaching that had never been believed before.
Symbolic Baptism is entirely false human tradition founded by Zwingli. Never was universal belief and not close to even majority belief.
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For Zwingli to be right that baptism was merely symbolic, the entirety of Christianity from his time back would have been deceived. Everyone.
All those that preserved the scriptures through persecution and assembled the Bible, all the great scholars, Church Fathers, and martyrs would have to be all wrong for Zwingli to be correct.
This is the arrogance that accompanies private interpretation of scripture, you can reject the whole world with only your opinion of it. Like no one else in the world has a Bible.
You have subjugated scripture, chained it in your back yard, and it only yields the meaning you beat out of it. You make it do the tricks you like.
All those that preserved the scriptures through persecution and assembled the Bible, all the great scholars, Church Fathers, and martyrs would have to be all wrong for Zwingli to be correct.
This is the arrogance that accompanies private interpretation of scripture, you can reject the whole world with only your opinion of it. Like no one else in the world has a Bible.
You have subjugated scripture, chained it in your back yard, and it only yields the meaning you beat out of it. You make it do the tricks you like.
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37818
Well-Known Member
Hmm. That interpretation is wrong on three counts.
First the passage has nothing to do with believer's baptism. Secondly is explicitly about two types of births.
". . . That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. . . ."
Two births. Being born, water. Born again, being of the Spirit.
Always?! Universally?!
Not even close. You need to read the context and not six words out of the whole context. Get off the internet, pick up your Bible and read John 3:1-8. This passage is not referencing baptism at ALL!
[1] Nicodemus comes to Jesus secretly and confesses to Jesus that he knows Jesus is from God.
[2] Jesus, knowing the questions Nicodemus has before he even asks them, gives him the answer. Jesus says, "You can't see the kingdom of God unless you are born again."
[3] Nicodemus doesn't understand and asks how can he go back into his mother's womb.
[4] Jesus repeats what he said the first time with a little more explanation. "no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."
[5] Then Jesus explains what he means by "water and Spirit". He says, "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. "
Humanity - all of humanity - is born of a sac of water in a womb. Flesh gives birth to flesh. That's what Nicodemus was thinking. But Jesus takes that and teaches Nicodemus that the Holy Spirit REgenerates the human who comes to Christ - truly "rebirths" him/her.
This passage does not teach that getting dunked in the water or having someone drip a drip of water on your head saves you.
Mary was an incredible young woman. She was honored by God to carry the Messiah.
She was ordinary and she was not a perpetual virgin. The Bible says so.
She WAS a virgin when she conceived Jesus AND when she bore him. She had been married to Joseph and did not have sex.
UNTIL!! Until what? The Bible says in Matthew 1 that - "When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."
You know what "until" means.
If Mary and Joseph's marriage was NEVER consummated, then why the phrase "until she gave birth to a son"?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The teaching that Mary remained a virgin all of her life is disproved by the consummation of their marriage mentioned in Matthew 1:25.
Other references which indicate that Mary had children by Joseph are Matthew12:46; Matthew13:55-56; Mark 6:3; John 7:3, John 7:5; Acts of the Apostles 1:14; 1Corinthians 9:5; and Galatians 1:19. BBC
Other references which indicate that Mary had children by Joseph are Matthew12:46; Matthew13:55-56; Mark 6:3; John 7:3, John 7:5; Acts of the Apostles 1:14; 1Corinthians 9:5; and Galatians 1:19. BBC
This is where you go beyond scripture.
This is an erroneous reading of the text because “not until” does not mean “did not…until after.” “Heos” references the past, never the future.
It means up to that point, not until after.
Examples: There are many.
2 Sam. 6:23 Saul’s daughter Micah was childless “up to the point” “until” her death. Did she get pregnant after she died?
If you want use Heos as denoting what happen next, then you have to believe she had a child after her death.
Luke 2:37 Anna was a widow “up to the point that” “until “she was eighty-four years old. She was not a widow after eighty four years old.
Luke 20:43 Jesus says, “take your seat at my right hand until I have made your enemies your footstool.” Jesus is not going to require the apostles to sit at His left hand after their enemies are their footstool.
Even the first reformers knew this.
If you interpret scripture as a modern, slide into danger. Heos “until” never denotes what comes next, it means up to that point.
This is a classic case of going beyond scripture.
Besides, all the ancient Churches, even in schism on other things, all say Mary was ever Virgin. Catholics, Orthodox, Coptic, even the first reformers all say Mary was ever Virgin.
It was Universal Christian belief for over 1500 years.
Didn’t Christians have the Bible in that time, yes they did, they determined the Bible, and they understood it correctly.
You know where this interpretation of scripture began?
Zwingli, did you know that. Before him, All Christianity universally held that water Baptism was regeneration being “ born again “.
Universal Christian beliefs are not just majority beliefs, they have Infallible status because of Jesus promise.
If the entirety of Christianity was universally deceived on this doctrine for 1500 years, then the gates of Hell totally prevailed against the Church for 1500 years, the Church isn’t guided in all truth, and Jesus would be a liar.
So you can give Zwingli Infallible status on his new interpretation of scripture, and say every Christian before him was completely deceived.
Zwingli vs All Christianity before him and even the majority of Christianity today.
Listen, even the first reformers looked at Zwingli like he was crazy in his new interpretation of scripture, they knew that water baptismal regeneration was universal Christian belief.
This is the problem with private interpretation, it interprets what it wants from scripture, and to hell with all preceding Christianity if need be.
Luther looked on in lament, he had opened the gates of Hell with his “scripture alone “ heresy.
“There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams.” Martin Luther.
Zwingli was the inevitable result of Luther’s first heresy. People interpreted every new heresy from scripture, all while claiming to be inspired by The Holy Spirit.
Who on earth is Zwingli? Nevermind. I am not interested.
If one person or countless Christians are deceived - it isn't because of CHRIST. Jesus Christ doesn't lie. Lies come from the Father of Lies - the devil.
I highly doubt that 100% of Christians believed in baptismal regeneration from Jesus' day to Zwingli's day [whoever he is].
Ulrich Zwingli 1484-1531 is the father of the symbolic Baptism idea as an entirely new interpreted doctrine from scripture.
It was a human founded doctrine of the 1500s.
All Christian Churches everywhere believed that water Baptism was regenerational , and they baptised infants.
East and West all Christians believed it.
Who is Zwingli. The sad reality is many don’t know where their beliefs first came from, who interpreted this new doctrine from scripture first.
People adopt an interpretation and doctrine generationally and not realise it is human founded tradition, based on the opinion of some obscure guy like Zwingli. This is the tragedy.
The safest doctrines are the universal ones, because Jesus would not allow the entire Church be totally deceived.
The Church came close as with the Arian heresy, but it was never universal, there were dissenters.
But with water Baptism it was universal across all Christianity that it was regeneration, being born again.
You've multiple errors in this post confusing Hebrew and Greek and not knowing what Luke 20:43 is talking about.
Again, I don't care what people believed in the past or what they will believe in the future. What's popular and taught by powerful people is not always right and what is right is not always popular nor taught by powerful people.
I have no idea WHY Mary HAS TO BE perpetually chaste to BE Mary. She isn't the Mother of God. She can't be. God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
She isn't the Queen of Heaven, thank the Lord! The book of Jeremiah says the Queen of Heaven is associated with pagan idolatry.
Mary is just Mary. Wife of Joseph. Mother of Christ [a virgin birth] and mother of at least six others.
First off, because it is true. Mary is the sacred human vessel that conceived Incarnate God in her womb of her sinless flesh. The Ark of the Covenant containing God’s Presence was the prefigurement of Mary in the new Covenant containing God Himself, Jesus.
The Arks of the Covenants had singular sacred purposes totally dedicated to God, no one else, jealously guarded by God as His Throne.
Jesus is God, Mary is the mother of Jesus, who is God.
Jesus is King in the line of David. In the Davidic line the Mother of the King was queen. Solomon’s Mother was Queen, not his wife. Jesus being King makes Mary Queen.
“When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”
Mary is not just Mary according to the Holy Spirit filled Elizabeth, she is greatly favoured to be visited by Mary the mother of Adonai the Lord. The mother of God, the only Lord for a faithful Jewess is God.
She didn’t say, ‘it’s just Mary everyone’. Elizabeth was a holy woman herself, but even she was overawed to be visited by Mary.
Mary is not just Mary at all. If the Holy Spirit filled Elizabeth shows such great respect for Mary, we should to.
The brothers and sisters are Jesus cousins, which were called brothers and sisters constantly in their culture. Mary had another sister called Mary the wife Clopas, their children were Jesus cousins.
In PNG I was raised in a culture that called cousins brothers and sisters, even uncles and distant other family ties.
James called Jesus brother, is his cousin.
Luther even agreed that Jesus “ brothers and sisters “ were his cousins, but so did the entire Church. Remember it was a universal belief, Mary ever Virgin.
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Bathsheba was Davids queen. She was queen because she was Davids favored wife.
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