Reconciled while enemies

[Dr. Walter]

dw:



not one sin was ever laid to their Charge

You are confusing provision with application. The Bible clearly teaches that we were even as other "children of wrath" and the wrath is due because we were also "children of disobedence" even as others.

You are confusing eternity/purpose with time/provision/application. What you say is true as long as you place it in the proper context. In the context of eternity/purpose we are even glorified. However were we ever unglorified?

In the context of eternity/purpose we were reconciled. However were we ever not reconciled?

In the context of eternity/purpose we were not condemned. However were we ever condemned?

In the context of eternity/purpose we were redeemed. However were we ever not redeemed?

Are you getting my point? You take a truth but place it in the wrong context and you get heresy and what you are teaching is heresy.

Now, in the context of time/provision/application Christ actually came and made the provision but does that mean the provision was already applied to us personally before he came to the cross? No! However, you confuse provision in time and space with application in time and space.

When was God in Christ reconciling us to Him? In eternity past? Certainly if you are talking about CONCEPTIONAL PURPOSE. However, it is absurd to teach that in eternity past God was in Christ reconciling us to him actually and realistically as we had no actual realistic existence in eternity past.

When was God in Christ reconciling us to Him? In time and space when Christ actually made the provision by his own human physical body as the sacrifice on calvary? Yes! Does provision in time and space EQUAL application in time and space? No! Hence, until the TIME we are reconciled to God through Christ by the provision made on the cross we are not reconciled to God or else the Apostle would not say "Be ye reconciled" as that would be stupid if we were already reconciled.

You confuse eternity with time, provision with application, and thus teach false doctrine. There is no condemnation to those "in Christ" but the context of that text is a TIME and SPACE context and the time is when we turned from unbelief to faith in the gospel and were justified by faith (Rom. 4:1-5:2). Hence, we were condemned under sin as the whole world was (Rom. 3:19-20) in regard to our own person and our own actual existence in time and space before we were justified by faith in the gospel. That event in time and space was the conception plan of God before the world began. It was justified by God by the provision Jesus made on the cross in time and space but it was not applied to you or me at no other point but in time and space when we were regenerated and converted to the gospel.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

You are confusing provision with application.

Its you who are confused. But God never laid one charge of Legal Guilt upon the Elect, He laid it upon Jesus Christ in the Covenant He became Surety of from Everlasting,the Everlasting Covenant. Heb 13:20

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Its you who are confused. But God never laid one charge of Legal Guilt upon the Elect, He laid it upon Jesus Christ in the Covenant He became Surety of from Everlasting,the Everlasting Covenant. Heb 13:20

You have already admitted that none come into this world as believers but all come into this world in unbelief. Jesus said that all who are in "unbelief" are condemned already:

Jn. 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Note the present tense "believeth not" and "is condemned" demonstrating that any person found in that condition is under condemnation. Since every human being came into this world in that condition then as long as they are in that condition Jesus says they are condemned.

Paul claims that "every mouth" and "all the world" are condemned by the law as "guilty". You cannot be charged as "guilty" by the law until and unless you are first judged and condemned by the law as "guilty" because "guilt" is the consequence of condemnation by the law:

Rom. 3:19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

The fact that all the elect are subject to death and come into this world spiritually dead is only possible because they have first been condemned by the law of God which death is the CONSEQUENCE of condemnation under the law:

Rom. 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Paul says that the elect are "children of wrath" EVEN AS OTHERS! One cannot be under wrath until they are first CONDEMNED by some standard of righteousness or wrath unjustified!

Eph. 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

You simply do not know what you are talking about! Your error consists in confusing eternity/purpose with time/existence. The only one blind and confused is you and I think all the readers can easily see this.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

You have already admitted that none come into this world as believers

Yes, the elect are not born believers, but they are born reconciled to God already by the Death of God's Son. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

One does not have to be a believer to be reconciled to God. Christ death accomplished that for them.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Yes, the elect are not born believers, but they are born reconciled to God already by the Death of God's Son. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

One does not have to be a believer to be reconciled to God. Christ death accomplished that for them.

Romans 5:10 refers to reconciliation by provision not by application or by personal condition. It refers to that which is provided IN TIME not in eternity.


I have provided several texts that explicity contradict your interpretation of Romans 5:10 and I have provided an interpretation of Romans 5:10 that harmonizes with these other explicit texts. You cannot do the same. You can only do what a cultist does - repeat like a parrot and ignore the rest of Biblical evidence and PIT SCRIPTURE AGAINST SCRIPTURE. That very response is proof of error as the truth always harmonizes.

 

[savedbymercy]

Romans 5:10 refers to reconciliation by provision not by application or by personal condition.

Rom 5:10 is the legal standing [before God] of the those Christ died for, They are reconciled to God. They do not have to be believers to be reconciled legally before God.

They are reconciled to God even while they are enemies.

The word reconciled in this verse is in the past tense, while the word enemies is in the present tense in the greek.

So the text could read, even while being enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Rom 5:10 is the legal standing [before God] of the those Christ died for, They are reconciled to God. They do not have to be believers to be reconciled legally before God.

They are reconciled to God even while they are enemies.

The word reconciled in this verse is in the past tense, while the word enemies is in the present tense in the greek.

So the text could read, even while being enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son.

No! That is the PROVISIONAL STANDING they have by the PROVISION of Jesus Christ before the members of the Roman assembly were saved. However, that provision was not existent in time and space when David was saved and David was an enemy before the cross existed. Nevertheless, David was JUSTIFIED and thus RECONCILED to God by faith looking forward to the cross (Acts 10:43).

The legal standing is called justification and is accomplised "by faith" (Rom. 5:1-2) and there is no peace/reconciliation between the elect and God before justification by faith EXCEPT by purpose and by provision.

 

[savedbymercy]

No! That is the PROVISIONAL STANDING they have by the PROVISION of Jesus Christ before the members of the Roman assembly were saved. However, that provision was not existent in time and space when David was saved and David was an enemy before the cross existed. Nevertheless, David was JUSTIFIED and thus RECONCILED to God by faith looking forward to the cross (Acts 10:43).

The legal standing is called justification and is accomplised "by faith" (Rom. 5:1-2) and there is no peace/reconciliation between the elect and God before justification by faith EXCEPT by purpose and by provision.

The elect are legally reconciled to God before faith, by the death of Christ. Their legal condemnation was never laid to their charge, it was laid to Christ charge. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2 Cor 5:19

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

All the elect, when they are born by nature children of wrath as others, God has not laid one Transgression against them, even then. He views them Perfect in His Son.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The elect are legally reconciled to God before faith, by the death of Christ. Their legal condemnation was never laid to their charge, it was laid to Christ charge. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2 Cor 5:19

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

All the elect, when they are born by nature children of wrath as others, God has not laid one Transgression against them, even then. He views them Perfect in His Son.

The fact that they do not ultimately receive the eternal penal reward does not mean they were not previously condemned. In fact, the very provision of Christ for that purpose demands they were under condemnation or no such legal provision would be necessary. It only means that God made the legal provision through Christ and at some point in time applied it to their person. Prior to that application they were still legally under condemnation and thus properly defined as children of wrath. For those living before the cross there was no such legal provision existent except by divine purpose. However, they were still justified by faith looking forward to the promised provision (Acts 10:43; Rom. 3:24-26). Hence, the Old Testament saints were enemies BEFORE they were reconciled by the cross provision just as the Romans and New Testament saints were reconciled by the cross provision BEFORE and while they were enemies. This is all due to the time of the provision that stands between Old and New Testament saints. However, legal justification of Abraham occurred BEFORE legal reconciliation was provided by Christ on the cross. Nevertheless, the yet future legal reconciliation provided by Christ on the cross was still the basis "by faith" to be LEGALLY JUSTIFIED.

You are confusing the legal BASIS or provision with the legal APPLICATION. Where there is no LEGAL application there is still condemnation. Just as in the law system there is a legal basis provided to justify persons but it is of no avail to that person until it is applied.

You are attempting to make the legal basis STAND ALONE as completed justification of the elect but that is contrary to the LEGAL SYSTEM established by God, as God does not ACTUALLY justify anyone apart from actual application of the provision to that person. This is proven by the justification of Old Testament saints. The provision had not yet been made. Furthermore, there was no justification of Old Testament saints apart from "faith" in the coming provision just as there is no justification for New Testament saints apart from "by faith" in the past provision on the cross.

That is why we are still "children of WRATH" previous to faith. That is why we are "already condemned" previous to faith. That is why we are regarded "guilty" previous to faith and that is why we only have "peace" which is reconciliation "by faith" (Rom. 5:1-2) because "by faith" legal provision becomes application.

Where there is no actual application of the provision there is no reconciliation between God and that person and that is precisely why Paul can say "be ye reconciled". Where there is no application of the provision there is no legal justification of the person and that is precisely why we were justified "by faith" and not simply by the provision.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw:

The fact that they do not ultimately receive the eternal penal reward does not mean they were not previously condemned

They never were condemned, because Christ was condemned in their stead. Justice will not allow for them to be condemned Twice..

Were they sinful as others ? Yes, were they condemned by God as others, NO..If you say they were then you deny that Christ death for them meant anything to God on their behalf, His death alone..

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw:



They never were condemned, because Christ was condemned in their stead. Justice will not allow for them to be condemned Twice..

Were they sinful as others ? Yes, were they condemned by God as others, NO..If you say they were then you deny that Christ death for them meant anything to God on their behalf, His death alone..

It is impossible to be a "sinner" until you are first condemned by the law to be a sinner! There is no other possible way to be regarded as a sinner.

You can't deal with the evidence contrary to your position and so you ignore it and do the parrot routine.

Your position is absurd and rediculous.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

It is impossible to be a "sinner" until you are first condemned by the law

Thats a lie, and Christ was condemned by the law for the elect's sins. Do you deny that as well ?

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Thats a lie, and Christ was condemned by the law for the elect's sins. Do you deny that as well ?

My oh my! We are condemned under the law because we are sinners by nature and by choice. Christ was condemned under the law because our sins were imputed unto him so taking the POSITION of those who were sinners by nature and by choice and yet without sin.

However, neither we or Christ could have been regarded or imputed with sin unless first condemend by the law as sinners in regard to actual condition or position.

Hence, there is no such thing as a sinner except by condemnation under law. Christ was condemned under the law because he took the POSITION of sinners and we are condemned under law because we are sinners. Thus we came into this world CONDEMNED as sinners.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

My oh my! We are condemned under the law because we are sinners by nature and by choice

Christ was condemned by the Law for His Peoples sins. They were not condemned. Now either Christ was condemned for their sins or they were condemned for their own sins, cannot be both, God's Justice will not allow it.

 

[savedbymercy]

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

All those who when they were yet enemies to God by nature, they were nevertheless reconciled to God BY the death of His Son, now being reconciled, its 100 % guarenteed they shall be saved by His [Jesus Christ God's Son] Life..

So how is it possible for any that Christ died for, not be saved by His Life ? To say that is to flat out contradict the Truth of scripture..
​

 

[savedbymercy]

More on reconciliation

Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Those who have been reconciled to God objectively, while yet being enemies, unbelievers, by the death of God's Son, its promised to them, that they shall be saved [converted] by His Life. Saved here means that they shall be subjectively reconciled to God, they shall be converted unto Him, seeing that He is already at peace with them and have been received into His Favor, for Christ sake.

Even when the elect are in God's favor, the penalty of their sins satisfied, yet still by nature we are rebels and in arms against God, having enmity in our minds against God and the things of God, being alienated from the life of God [Eph 4:18], but Jesus Christ as their Surety, engaged to Change our hearts, the hearts of all those He undertook for and behalf of, and to bring them to God, through the blood of His Cross. Peter explains it well here 1 Pet 3:18

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

This bring us to God here is that promised saving by His life in Rom 5:10, its that subjective reconciliation because of objective reconciliation.

 

[savedbymercy]

Reconciled to God by the Death of His Son ! Thats what the scripture says. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we [The Elect] were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now the Elect, those that Christ died for [Rom 8:33-34] over 2000 yrs ago , though they are born into this world as any other sinner, by nature children of wrath[Eph 2:3], at enmity with God subjectively, and in unbelief, are nevertheless born already reconciled to God [ Legally and objectively], and therefore free form all legal condemnation of God's Law, In that Christ already having satisfied [propitiated] it's Just claims against them by His blood Rom 5:

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Yes, objectively, before the elect believe or before they are born, they are legally and objectively Justified [reconciled] and made certain of all future subjective salvations.

By the blood of Christ, those Christ died for have been redeemed from the curse of the Law, and have no legal obligation to it as to its penalty for violation, because the redemption is Eternal Heb 9:12;Eph 1:7.

The only way one can be reconciled to God, and received into His Favor as reconciliation denotes, for the word is the greek word is katallassō:


return to favour with, be reconciled to one

c) to receive one into favour

Now for this to have had occurred, God's wrath for their sins must be satisfied, appeased, and they must be freed from the penalty of sin and God's violated law, and must be forgiven of their sins, otherwise one cannot be legally reconciled before God. But this is the case, solely based upon Christ Death for them.

 

[Dr. Walter]

More on reconciliation

Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Those who have been reconciled to God objectively, while yet being enemies, unbelievers, by the death of God's Son, its promised to them, that they shall be saved [converted] by His Life. Saved here means that they shall be subjectively reconciled to God, they shall be converted unto Him, seeing that He is already at peace with them and have been received into His Favor, for Christ sake.

In context, Paul has spent a lengthy portion on justification by faith beginning in Romans 3:19 to Romans 5:1. Beginning in Romans 5:1 to Romans 5:11 Paul's purpose is to provide the CONSEQUENCES of justification in TIME and SPACE which begins with "peace" (Rom. 5:1) and then proceeds to establish the fundemental proofs of eternal security as the consequence of justification in verses 2-11.

1. We have a perfect tense completed action of a STANDING in grace - v. 2
2. We are more than conquerors over tribulations - vv. 3-5
3. We are indwelt by the Spirit of God who effectually works within us - v. 6
4. We are objects of love that is unconditional and permenant - v. 7-11
5. We are justified on the basis of "one man's" personal obedience in our behalf instead of our own obedience - vv. 12-19.
6. Where our sins abound his grace much more abounds - vv. 20-21.

Hence,in context verse 10 provides additional evidence for the security in TIME and SPACE provided through justification by faith in Jesus Christ. The basis for that security in JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH is provided by both the "death" of Christ and also by the "life" of Christ. His death satisfies the full wrath of God and thus satisfies the law's penalty against us as sinners - fully paid and thus we are secure from any condemnation - and therefore when we are justified by faith we "shall not come into condemnation" because we have already passed from death to life LEGALLY through justification by faith in the death of Jesus Christ.

The "life" of Christ also provides security IN TIME AND SPACE. There is his pre-cross "life" which provides full satisfaction of God's righteousness demanded to obtain the approval of the law for eternal life. Hence, that sinless "life" saves us just as his death saves us. There is his post-resurrection "life" that saves us. The post-resurrection "life" is what provides the POWER to "save" our daily life or the power through the Spirit of God to "redeem the time" by walking in the Spirit, being filled by the Spirit so that our daily life glorifies God and is saved in the form of rewards in eternity. This PROVISION of Christ's death and life is evidence of God's love and committment to preserve what has been justified by faith.

Both Christ's death and life demonstrate the unconditional love of God received in time and space through justification by faith. His death justifies us against the PENALTY of sin while His life justifies us against the righteous demands of God's law that requires sinlessness to be justified in His sight. Both are needed for us to be "saved" from the consequences of sin - condemnation. This is the context of the "life" that "saved" us in Romans 5:11. The security of the believer is further established on the fact representation/substition by "one man's obedience" just as his original condemnation was due to representation/substitution by "one man's disobedience" - Rom. 5:12-21. It is the obedient "life" of that substitute that ultimately saves those justified by faith as it is the life and death of Christ that is the object of saving faith.

Paul tells the Romans that before they were justified by faith in time and space, the cross PROVISION demonstrated the love of God while they were yet enemies or unreconciled to God and thus their salvation was according to God's purpose and since God made this provision in Christ before they were justified and thus reconciled to God how much more being NOW reconciled through justification by faith will God's love secure what has been justified by the "life" of Christ - the power of the indwellling Spirit of Christ that will provide "peace" (v. 1) and complete finished standing in grace throught that same faith (v. 2) and preservation through tribulations (vv. 3-5) as this is the kind of "love" that is shed abroad in our hearts THROUGH FAITH (v. 6) because this is God's "love" that began and finishes our salvation (vv. 7-11).

There is no teaching here that we were already reconciled to God personally or practically before we were justified by faith in time and space. The only teaching here is that justification by faith has its basis in the PROVISION of the Person and work of Christ - His death and His life which is not only sufficient but effectual in securing our final and ultimate salvation. We were reconciled by the PROVISION of the cross before we were reconciled by faith in the cross. In Romans 8:29-30 Paul will tell them they were reconciled to God by the PURPOSE of God before they were reconciled by His PROVISION and before we were reconciled by JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH. Neither should be confused with the other and that is precisely the confusion presented by SBG.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

In context, Paul has spent a lengthy portion on justification by faith beginning in Romans 3:19 to Romans 5:1.

Rabbit Trail, deal with the facts I posted..

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Rabbit Trail, deal with the facts I posted..

You call the immediate context of the very verse you are jerking out of context to be a "rabbit trail"????? This is the very reason your posts have no substantive value. They are simply proof texts jerked out of context. I gave the proper context and demonstrated that your interpretation does not fit the context. The context is dealling with consequences of justification by faith - vv. 1-21. The consequences of justification by faith is the context and that is easy to see if you read verse 1 as verse one introduces the subject.

In particular, Romans 5:2-21 provides a very cogent argument by Paul why those justified by faith will not lose their salvation. Tribulation will not rob them of their salvation - vv. 2-4. Their hope of salvation is founded upon the unconditional proofs of God's love - v. 5 provided in the PROVISION of the cross while they were yet enemies and permenantly preserved in the future by the full satisfaction of Christ's death after being reconciled/justified by faith - vv.7-9 as well as the power of the resurrected "life" of Christ - vv. 10-11.

All of the basis for justification by faith is completely founded upon "one man's obedience" and thus based entirely upon his fitness before God's law rather than the personal obedience of the one having been justified - vv. 12-19. The conclusion is that justification by faith satisfies all charges of sin in the justified so where sin abounds in the person of the justified grace due to the obedience of his substitute more abounds - vv. 20-21. This victorious conclusion naturally brings up the question in Romans 6:1.

Your interpretation is foreign to the immediate context and has nothing to do with his response.