Regeneration before faith can it be proven?

[Particular]

This says exactly what I have claimed all along it's underlined so you can't miss it. Grace comes through faith. No Faith No Grace
MB

You failed to read the whole passage. Let me point it out.

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ"

That precedes your verse. It shows that the gracious work of making a person alive with Christ comes before the gift of faith. It has to, because dead men cannot have faith.

Now, will you move the goalposts or will you accept what God is telling you in this passage?

 

[MB]

You failed to read the whole passage. Let me point it out.

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ"

That precedes your verse. It shows that the gracious work of making a person alive with Christ comes before the gift of faith. It has to, because dead men cannot have faith.

Now, will you move the goalposts or will you accept what God is telling you in this passage?

No it doesn't. You see Paul is still speaking and explaining what he is speaking about. You are just placing the cart before the horse. IOW"s you are taking it out of context to come to your position. You cannot have regeneration with out Grace and you cannot have Grace unless it comes through faith. Sorry but truth is in the complete passage. And you can't understand it because it conflicts with what you believe.
MB

 

[Particular]

No it doesn't. You see Paul is still speaking and explaining what he is speaking about. You are just placing the cart before the horse. IOW"s you are taking it out of context to come to your position. You cannot have regeneration with out Grace and you cannot have Grace unless it comes through faith. Sorry but truth is in the complete passage. And you can't understand it because it conflicts with what you believe.
MB

Not at all. Paul has explained in verse 1 that were all dead in our trespasses and sins. Then, in verse 4, comes that beautiful transition word...But.
But God...made us alive with Christ...
You are the one who is missing the entire flow that Paul is expressing. In this case it is you who is putting the cart before the horse. You are demanding that faith must come before God's gracious regeneration. But, the passage itself shows you are incorrect.

 

[MB]

Not at all. Paul has explained in verse 1 that were all dead in our trespasses and sins. Then, in verse 4, comes that beautiful transition word...But.
But God...made us alive with Christ...
You are the one who is missing the entire flow that Paul is expressing. In this case it is you who is putting the cart before the horse. You are demanding that faith must come before God's gracious regeneration. But, the passage itself shows you are incorrect.

Only in your dreams You refuse to understand the entire text as a whole. Avoiding the truth will not make it disapear.
MB

 

[Particular]

Only in your dreams You refuse to understand the entire text as a whole. Avoiding the truth will not make it disapear.
MB

I understand the text as a whole. I let it say what it says. I find it interesting that you desire to change the progression to fit your narrative.

 

[1689Dave]

If it can't be proven from scripture then it must be false Please show scriptural proof.
MB.

Faith is a fruit (effect) of the Holy Spirit? That is you need to be saved before you can believe. And whoever believes has salvation or they could not believe in any true sense.

 

[MB]

Faith is a fruit (effect) of the Holy Spirit? That is you need to be saved before you can believe. And whoever believes has salvation or they could not believe in any true sense.

Completely not scriptural!. You 'd have too ignor most of scripture to come to such a conclusion.
MB

 

[MB]

I understand the text as a whole. I let it say what it says. I find it interesting that you desire to change the progression to fit your narrative.

Not so Just another false statement to avoid the truth
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

John 6:65 is pretty clear that no man can come to Christ unless granted by the Father.
1 Cor. 2:12-14 the natural man cannot understand the things of God unless the Spirit gives him understanding. This would include the truth of the Gospel.

Those are just a couple and this idea that it cannot be shown in Scripture is nonsense.

Now, I await your Scripture twisting reply.

Doesn't Acts state that as many as the Lord opened their minds to the message received jesus and were saved?

 

[1689Dave]

Completely not scriptural!. You 'd have too ignor most of scripture to come to such a conclusion.
MB

How can you have faith without first having the Holy Spirit....when faith is a fruit thereof?

 

[MB]

John 6:65 is pretty clear that no man can come to Christ unless granted by the Father.
1 Cor. 2:12-14 the natural man cannot understand the things of God unless the Spirit gives him understanding. This would include the truth of the Gospel.

Those are just a couple and this idea that it cannot be shown in Scripture is nonsense.

Now, I await your Scripture twisting reply.

Neither one says anything about Regeneration before faith. just a strawman arguing over false claims
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

Neither one says anything about Regeneration before faith. just a strawman arguing over false claims
MB

What do you think regeneration is?

 

[MB]

How can you have faith without first having the Holy Spirit....when faith is a fruit thereof?

I call it more faith. It does grow.you know.
MB

 

[MB]

What do you think regeneration is?

why don't you tell me you are going to any way
MB

 

[Particular]

The Greek word used for redeemed is “lytrōsis” and has a literal meaning of “a ransoming, deliverance” or “a rescue” and that is exactly what Jesus has done by giving His own life over 2,000 years ago at Calvary. Paul says that “Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God” (Rom 5:9). When Paul says that we are saved from God’s wrath, he reveals that it was by Jesus’ shed blood that were not only rescued or redeemed but we were justified by this spilling of His blood. As Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 5:21 that is was “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” The way sinners can be justified, redeemed from Gods’ wrath, and then made the necessary “righteousness of God” was by Jesus becoming sin for us. What are we saved from ultimately? Is it our sins? Is it from hell? Is it so that we can enter heaven? In the end, we are actually saved or rescued from God’s wrath. God placed the wrath that was due us upon Jesus so that if we repent and trust in the Savior, God will look at us as having the same righteousness as Jesus has.
What Does Redemption Mean In The Bible? Christian Definition of Redemption

 

[Dave G]

None of the scriptures you have presented prove men are Regenerated before faith.

I'll post one in the hope that you will see it:

" And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

This says exactly what I have claimed all along it's underlined so you can't miss it. Grace comes through faith. No Faith No Grace

Salvation comes by grace, and through faith.
Nowhere does the Bible declare that grace comes through faith or even by it.
If you can find it, please show me.

His grace is not of debt ( Romans 4:4 ), neither is it of works ( Romans 11:5-6 ).
Furthermore, it is all of grace, lest any man should boast.

God's grace is not purchased through faith...one cannot buy what one does not have the "money" to buy.
Jesus Christ was the only one who could pay the immense fee...perfect obedience to the Law.
It is His faith ( Hebrews 12:2 ) and His righteousness ( Romans 4:5, Romans 3:22 ) that are given to the believer.
One is given ( Jude 1:3 ), and the other is imputed ( Romans 4 ).


Faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ), sir, and gifts cannot be used to purchase the greatest gift...eternal life.
God's favor cannot be gained by the efforts of men.
That is works, not grace.

Salvation is not by any work of righteousness ( Titus 3:5-6 ), but is according to His mercy ( Romans 9:16 ).

 

[percho]

I'll post one in the hope that you will see it:

" And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).

Salvation comes by grace, and through faith.
Nowhere does the Bible declare that grace comes through faith or even by it.
If you can find it, please show me.

His grace is not of debt ( Romans 4:4 ), neither is it of works ( Romans 11:5-6 ).
Furthermore, it is all of grace, lest any man should boast.

God's grace is not purchased through faith...one cannot buy what one does not have the "money" to buy.
Jesus Christ was the only one who could pay the immense fee...perfect obedience to the Law.
It is His faith ( Hebrews 12:2 ) and His righteousness ( Romans 4:5, Romans 3:22 ) that are given to the believer.
One is given ( Jude 1:3 ), and the other is imputed ( Romans 4 ).


Faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ), sir, and gifts cannot be used to purchase the greatest gift...eternal life.
God's favor cannot be gained by the efforts of men.
That is works, not grace.

Salvation is not by any work of righteousness ( Titus 3:5-6 ), but is according to His mercy ( Romans 9:16 ).

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

IMHO Salvation is the gift of God.

for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift, Eph 2:8

Textus Receptus
τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·

Through the faith, whatever that faith may be.

IMHO That, the faith, can not be relative to any man born of woman other than Jesus.

 

[Calminian]

If it can't be proven from scripture then it must be false Please show scriptural proof.
MB.

I don't think the Bible supports this idea. I'm also not sure all calvinists hold to this, though many (perhaps most) do.

Most arguments for it aren't directly from the text, but rather inferences based on metaphors of blindness, death, etc. How can a person who is dead believe? He first has to be made alive again.

The problem is, Scripture doesn't directly say we are regenerated and saved before we believe, and seems to say the opposite.

Rom. 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

And the Bible also uses other metaphors to describe the natural man such as sick, estranged, unclean, polluted, hardened.

The only thing specifically that comes before faith is drawing and enlightenment, which are definitely not salvation or regeneration terms. Scripture does say that grace in these forms must precede faith, so they do affect the state of the natural man, but this is before faith and regeneration. That seems to be the hard part for calvinists to accept, the idea that there is a time when God will enable a man to see and hear, before he is regenerated. Why there is such an aversion to that, I'm not sure. Perhaps someone can clue me in.

 

[MB]

All the Calvinist on this thread have failed to prove regeneration before faith. Of course they have deluded them selves to think they have proven it yet I'm not deluded in to thinking as they do This portion of the Calvinist doctrine is absolutely false.
MB

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

I would add that depending on what you mean by regeneration, Arminians may believe in it as well via prevenient grace where the believer is given Grace to make the decision prior before he/she is Saved. Totally depraved humans cannot chose to follow God unless he draws them to Himself.