Regeneration before faith can it be proven?

[MB]

I would add that depending on what you mean by regeneration, Arminians may believe in it as well via prevenient grace where the believer is given Grace to make the decision prior before he/she is Saved. Totally depraved humans cannot chose to follow God unless he draws them to Himself.

Christ has drawn every man;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Of course the Calvinist will say the word "All" doesn't mean "All". You see they have to change the meaning of this word so they can over look the truth.

I'm neither Arminian or Calvinist. This confuses them because they believe there are only Calvinist and Arminians in the world. The truth is there are lot's of man made doctrines in the world and they are just one of them.

MB

 

[Marooncat79]

Romans 10:14. How can they call on whom they have not believed?

We have to have faith before we can call on Christ or we would never call on him per the text. Prime text for regeneration preceding faith IMO

 

[MB]

Romans 10:14. How can they call on whom they have not believed?

We have to have faith before we can call on Christ or we would never call on him per the text. Prime text for regeneration preceding faith IMO

That's a question not a statement
Here is the answer;
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
MB

 

[MartyF]

Ezekiel says it best.

Ezekiel 11:18-21 NLT
“When the people return to their homeland, they will remove every trace of their vile images and detestable idols. [19] And I will give them singleness of heart and put a new spirit within them. I will take away their stony, stubborn heart and give them a tender, responsive heart, [20] so they will obey my decrees and regulations. Then they will truly be my people, and I will be their God. [21] But as for those who long for vile images and detestable idols, I will repay them fully for their sins. I, the Sovereign LORD, have spoken!”

What's the order here?

 

[MB]

Ezekiel says it best.

Ezekiel 11:18-21 NLT
“When the people return to their homeland, they will remove every trace of their vile images and detestable idols. [19] And I will give them singleness of heart and put a new spirit within them. I will take away their stony, stubborn heart and give them a tender, responsive heart, [20] so they will obey my decrees and regulations. Then they will truly be my people, and I will be their God. [21] But as for those who long for vile images and detestable idols, I will repay them fully for their sins. I, the Sovereign LORD, have spoken!”

What's the order here?

It's interesting how new versions of scripture distort it's truth.
YLT

Eze 11:18 And they have gone in thither. And turned aside all its detestable things, And all its abominations—out of it.
Eze 11:19 And I have given to them one heart, And a new spirit I do give in your midst, And I have turned the heart of stone out of their flesh, And I have given to them a heart of flesh.
Eze 11:20 So that in My statutes they walk, And My judgments they keep, and have done them, And they have been to me for a people, And I am to them for God.
Eze 11:21 As to those whose heart is going unto the heart Of their detestable and their abominable things, Their way on their head I have put, An affirmation of the Lord Jehovah.'
There no such word as Sovereign in God's word
MB

 

[MartyF]

It's interesting how new versions of scripture distort it's truth.
YLT

Eze 11:18 And they have gone in thither. And turned aside all its detestable things, And all its abominations—out of it.
Eze 11:19 And I have given to them one heart, And a new spirit I do give in your midst, And I have turned the heart of stone out of their flesh, And I have given to them a heart of flesh.
Eze 11:20 So that in My statutes they walk, And My judgments they keep, and have done them, And they have been to me for a people, And I am to them for God.
Eze 11:21 As to those whose heart is going unto the heart Of their detestable and their abominable things, Their way on their head I have put, An affirmation of the Lord Jehovah.'
There no such word as Sovereign in God's word
MB

It's interesting how many people on this forum are illiterate.

 

[Particular]

That's a question not a statement
Here is the answer;
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
MB

Can dead men hear or must they first be made alive?

 

[Yeshua1]

Can dead men hear or must they first be made alive?

Not even the Gospel message can raise up spiritual dead if the Holy Spirit does not quicken them!

 

[Jerome]

Dr. Timothy George (Reformed Baptist), Theology of the Reformers:

"being placed into Christ (insitio in Christo) occurs in regeneration that, Calvin was careful to point out, follows from faith as its result"

 

[Jerome]

Warnings against this 'regeneration before faith' contrivance:

Abraham Booth (Particular Baptist), "Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners":

"the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believes in Jesus Christ....To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other---Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine."

Charles Spurgeon, "The Warrant of Faith"

"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is already saved! It is unnecessary and ridiculous for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved, when he is saved already, being regenerate!"

 

[Jerome]

John Calvin, Commentary on Jn 8:32

"when the Lord regenerates us by his Spirit, he likewise makes us free, so that, loosed from the snares of Satan, we willingly obey righteousness. But regeneration proceeds from faith"

John Calvin, Commentary on Rom 4:16:

"Here, in the first place, the Apostle shows, that nothing is set before faith but mere grace;...Hence, also, we may easily learn, that grace is not to be taken, as some imagine, for the gift of regeneration"

 

[Jerome]

Belgic Confession:

"We believe that this true faith being wrought in man by the hearing of the Word of God, and the operation of the Holy Ghost, doth regenerate and make him a new man"

The 1689 London Baptist Assembly:

"none can be said to be actually reconciled, justified, or adopted, until they are really implanted into Jesus Christ by faith; and so by virtue of this their union with him, have these fundamental benefits actually conveyed unto them. And this, we conceive, is fully evidenced, because the scripture attributes all these benefits to faith as the instrumental cause of them, Rom. iii. 25. v. 1, 11. Gal. iii. 26. And gives such representation of the state of the elect before faith, as is altogether inconsistent with an actual right in them. Eph. ii. 1, 2, 3, 12."

 

[Reformed1689]

All the Calvinist on this thread have failed to prove regeneration before faith.

In your opinion. But of course, we had no delusions that we would be able to sway you anyway. But that doesn't mean we haven't proven our case either.

 

[Reformed1689]

Christ has drawn every man;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Of course the Calvinist will say the word "All" doesn't mean "All". You see they have to change the meaning of this word so they can over look the truth.

I'm neither Arminian or Calvinist. This confuses them because they believe there are only Calvinist and Arminians in the world. The truth is there are lot's of man made doctrines in the world and they are just one of them.

MB

And the broken record continues, I have shown you MANY times how you are wrong by taking John 12:32 out of context.

 

[Particular]

Warnings against this 'regeneration before faith' contrivance:

Abraham Booth (Particular Baptist), "Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners":

"the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believes in Jesus Christ....To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other---Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine."

Charles Spurgeon, "The Warrant of Faith"

"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is already saved! It is unnecessary and ridiculous for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved, when he is saved already, being regenerate!"

What would be the immediate response of a man who is regenerated?

Acts 9:3-5
Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

 

[MB]

It's interesting how many people on this forum are illiterate.

God is not sovereign He is all mighty and all powerful. There are those who wish to relabel God. Are you one of them?
MB

 

[MB]

Can dead men hear or must they first be made alive?

If men are actually dead it's to late for them. I'm glad all Gentiles have been granted repentance, and can hear the gospel of there salvation We only get one life time chance to respond to the gospel.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
No so dead after all
MB

 

[Particular]

If men are actually dead it's to late for them. I'm glad all Gentiles have been granted repentance, and can hear the gospel of there salvation We only get one life time chance to respond to the gospel.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
No so dead after all
MB

So, since all men are actually spiritually dead, it should stand that it is too late for them...unless God would make them alive (regenerate them).
God does not make all men alive with Christ (unless you support universalism), therefore not all men can repent. (Only God knows whom He will make alive with Christ, yet He calls his servants to preach reconciliation to all.)
Hopefully, all humans are mercifully given the chance to hear the good news. Obviously there are still millions who have or never will get that chance. This is why we go, with a missional focus, to preach the gospel wherever a door is open.
Those whom God makes alive will hear his voice.

Acts 9:3-5 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

 

[StefanM]

God is not sovereign He is all mighty and all powerful. There are those who wish to relabel God. Are you one of them?
MB

Are you familiar with the definition of "sovereign"?

 

[Particular]

God is not sovereign He is all mighty and all powerful. There are those who wish to relabel God. Are you one of them?
MB

Perhaps you might read what God says to Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 2:4
They are a stubborn and hard-hearted people. But I am sending you to say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says!’