Regeneration

[Brandon C. Jones]

Skypair and Brandon here is your answer


rebirth," "born again," "new creation," "new creature

OK So these words are in the NT and I can find them and they will back up your claim that Born Again is before Salvation and new creation is before salvation and new creature is before salvation.

Here is a quote form my Original Post “I wonder if it is possible that "Calvinist" or a single Calvinist can clearly, with Scripture, make a case for Regeneration before salvation.

Well here are the results using the three words you furnished and nothing. Someone said you can run but you can't hide. Where will you run to now? What clear verse teaches regeneration before salvation? That is a reasonable question.


(1) First I tried “born again” in the KJV, NKJV, and NASV “the terms are not even used.

STRIKE ONE

(2) Second I tried “new creation” KJV, NKJV, and NASV

Galatians 6:15 speaks of “new creation” but does not address the question (NASV)
The KJV does not use the words “new creation”
II Cor. 5:17 speaks of “new creation” but does not address the question (NKJV)

STRIKE TWO


(3) Third I tried “new creature” KJV, NKJV, and NASV

The NKJV does not use the words “new creature”
II Cor. 5:17 speaks of “new creature” but does not address the question (KJV and NASV)

STRIKE THREE

Skypair and Brandon both of you are out. Is this the best you have?

STRIKE THREE YOU ARE OUT

If I'm the Brandon you're supposedly talking to then you need some help. My questions were "who cares?" and "isn't there a reason they closed down the old c/a debate forum? You answered one of them sorta :laugh:

 

[johnp.]

Hello GordonSlocum.

Regeneration only takes place once not twice and it follows faith in Christ.

That's impossible. No one can have faith unless he is born again. The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Rom 8:7-8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

Here is a quote form my Original Post “I wonder if it is possible that "Calvinist" or a single Calvinist can clearly, with Scripture, make a case for Regeneration before salvation.

The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Rom 8:7.

...the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace... Rom 8:6.

Regardless of the technicalities it is because of God that I am in Christ. 1 Cor 1:30.

..."isn't there a reason they closed down the old c/a debate forum?

They were the days.

john.

 

[GordonSlocum]

If I'm the Brandon you're supposedly talking to then you need some help. My questions were "who cares?" and "isn't there a reason they closed down the old c/a debate forum? You answered one of them sorta :laugh:

I don't really know what is going on with you but no one is twisting your arm to participate. If you have a position support it and move on.

 

[J.D.]

Aren't you arminians wasting time asking silly questions? How many souls that Jesus wanted to saved have gone to hell against His will while you've been debating?

 

[Blammo]

Aren't you arminians wasting time asking silly questions? How many souls that Jesus wanted to saved have gone to hell against His will while you've been debating?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

You're wasting time too, JD, the Lord is patiently waiting for you to go out and preach repentance to the elect.

 

[J.D.]

I wish I had time, but since I don't have time to look up the verses (like 1 John 5:1, John 3:5, James 1:18) I'll just surrender and admit that when I was the agent of my own birth. Satisfied now?

 

[Blammo]

I wish I had time, but since I don't have time to look up the verses (like 1 John 5:1, John 3:5, James 1:18) I'll just surrender and admit that when I was the agent of my own birth. Satisfied now?

Sorry, JD, I forgot to put a smiley at the end of my last post. You may have misunderstood. I was kidding around with ya.

 

[J.D.]

And what part of this passage allows for us to give birth to ourselves through the faith of the natural man?

10 But God has revealed [them] to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them,] because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is [rightly] judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Benjamin]

Aren't you arminians wasting time asking silly questions? How many souls that Jesus wanted to saved have gone to hell against His will while you've been debating?

Since all men having the ability to choose who he will serve has worked its way so well into my gospel presentations you may just be right. There are probably a lot of people out there that have been listening to Calvinist declarations that they may have been predestined to have no hope.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

We do not and cannot choose if and when we are physically born.

Can we choose if and when we are spiritually re-born?


Is this the crux of the whole debate/discussion?

 

[J.D.]

Sorry, JD, I forgot to put a smiley at the end of my last post. You may have misunderstood. I was kidding around with ya.

No offense taken. In spite of all the rancor I've been involved in on the BB, I've only been truly offended one time, and that was by a fellow calvinist. Don't try to figure out which post it was though, it's not obvious.

I don't count things that people say in anger or out of ignorance as personally offensive. And I hope I get the same couresty. I do get angry sometimes and say harsh things I don't mean. But sometimes I do mean them. Guess you're left with a guessing game as to when I mean it and when I don't. That's what makes it fun for me!

 

[Benjamin]

We do not and cannot choose if and when we are physically born.

Can we choose if and when we are spiritually re-born?


Is this the crux of the whole debate/discussion?

Interesting statement of faith on your profile:

Because I have placed my faith in Jesus Christ, who died for mankind's sins, was buried, and rose from the grave

 

[GordonSlocum]

And what part of this passage allows for us to give birth to ourselves through the faith of the natural man?

10 But God has revealed [them] to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them,] because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is [rightly] judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

That is so true. A person hears the gospel, believes, is saved / regenerated / adopted / indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

 

[GordonSlocum]

We do not and cannot choose if and when we are physically born.

Can we choose if and when we are spiritually re-born?


Is this the crux of the whole debate/discussion?

Your Mom and Dad did not ask you if you wanted to be born.

Adam and Eve were not ask if they wanted to be created.

Adam and Eve were giving a choice to eat or not eat of the tree of good and evil.

We are given the choice to believe and be regenerated.

 

[skypair]

MB,

I like some of your ideas. Regeneration is saved, for sure.

Regeneration means saved because it is being made new. We are regenerated when we believe or have trusting faith.

Belief or faith comes first.

I don't believe we should use "faith" and "belief" intercnageably. Belief precedes faith. We do get faith ( ="evidence," Heb 11:1) until we have first believed. It's like WE believe and God gives us the "evidence" of our belief. Which is what? The Holy Spirit, right? And we see in 1Cor 12:9 that faith is one of the "gifts of the Spirit" RECEIVED by believers (just as the Calvinists say!).!

Therefore [/SIZE]it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

God gave faith even to the OT believers. But it was in the form of "promise" as this verse says. Not just to those who were under the law -- not just to those of Abraham's kin -- but also to us the "promise" of glory came/comes.

We have to have our own faith to believe but righteous faith comes from Christ.

Paul said; Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works ... but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ[/U], and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. We believed so that we might be justified by/with faith. There's the order and the delineation between belief and faith. Do you see it??

Calvinism teaches the opposite that we need Grace to have faith and this is why no one can prove this position with scripture. It simply isn't in scripture.

You got that right!! Preach it, MB!

skypair

 

[skypair]

Andy

...

It sounds to me like God did some overriding of the human free will. This is a great section that shows God's work in regeneration, by taking a heathen, God-hating people, and distinctly telling them that He is going to restore them, and notice this, not because of THEIR sake, but because of His holy name's sake.

This is true regarding national and religious Israel. It is not applicable to individual salvation -- sotierology. God does not have to force His love and grace upon us for us to turn to Him.

You will find many other examples of this same flawed application by Calvinists, especially in their use of Rom 9-11 which are spoken also of national and religious Israel -- Paul's "kinsmen according to the flesh" (9:3); "they [religious Israel] have a zeal for God but not according to knowledge." (10:2); I say, hath God cast away His people [national Israel]?" (11:1).

skypair

 

[skypair]

I'm just an amatuer Calvinist, but I would think regeneration and salvation are the same thing.

BINGO! But Calvinists DON'T believe that. They mostly believe that "regeneration" precedes salvation such that the "elect" are enabled to "hear" "spiritual things" 1Cor 2:14 -- namely the gospel.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Skypair and Brandon here is your answer


rebirth," "born again," "new creation," "new creature

OK So these words are in the NT and I can find them and they will back up your claim that Born Again is before Salvation and new creation is before salvation and new creature is before salvation.

Don't answer me that way -- I'm on YOUR side. :laugh: I agree that salvation by faith precedes the "new birth," "new creation," etc.

skypair

 

[skypair]

christianyouth, whatever, johnp,

Well, the thing is as I stated in a different post entitled The Vague God - is God Ambigious, It is logically impossible for someone to generate faith. That is, one cannot convince themselves that Jesus was the Son of God, or that there is an inivisble creature running around in the attic, it is just not possible.

If Faith is brought by the Holy Spirit, then Calvinism is true. If Faith is a result of human free-will, then Calvinism is false.

You (and Calvin) left out a step, christian -- belief. It IS possible for someone to believe and repent and that is what "triggers" God granting faith to the believer.

Gal 3:22 -- "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."

Rom 3:22 -- "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

You have made one good point though -- "It is logically impossible for someone to generate faith." Calvinists assume 2 things: 1) That faith = belief and 2) that believing and choosing Christ is illogical, beyond the rational capability of any but the elect. This is why so many critics of Calvinism will say that the don't believe in "total depravity" -- they believe in "total inability," a charge frequently acerred by Calvinists themselves.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Aren't you arminians wasting time asking silly questions? How many souls that Jesus wanted to saved have gone to hell against His will while you've been debating?

We're working on the premise of "multiplication," J.D. If we can get you guys to actually offer salvation rather than sanctification to others, then we will multiply the witnesses for Christ!

See, Calvinists say we can't "choose" Christ so it stands to reason that they assume it of those who join with their theology and they are only sanctifying the presumably "elect." :tear:

skypair