relapse?

[HAMel]

righteousdude2, you know what I came to realize a while back?

Our Lord no where in His Word tells us to walk the isle; to go on visitation every Thursday evening; to wear a suit to Church every Sunday morning; to argue doctrine; to tell others they are wrong; to present ourselves as the keeper of all knowledge; to gossip/discuss others in Church; to read our Bible through every year; to handle snakes; to speak in tongues; along with a thousand of other issues that many people believe in and practice on a daily basis.

What our Lord Jesus does tell us is..., To Follow Him.

I think that's amazing! When you get right down to it..., that's amazing! Our God who created a universe without end, hung millions of galaxies in His universe, with millions of start to fill each, named them all, has instructed us to merely Follow Him. It can't get any easier than that.

Unfaithful men on the other hand seem to be unable to accept what He has provided for us and spend much time creating on their own. Mankind is so foolish. So ignorant. So backwards.

Personally, I've almost come to the conclusion that to even engage in back and forth effort to argue who's right and who's wrong is sin in itself. Our Lord Jesus presented Himself as the Good Sheppard. In His day, a Sheppard was the lowest of the low in their society. As such, I should jump up in the air trying to impress everyone around me of my vast knowledge, insights and wisdom? Not hardly.

My Lord told me to Follow Him. I'm happy with that and totally satisfied with being a Sheppard in His Name. Praise the Lord!

 

[jbh28]

Baloney, even a majority of the MVs agree with the KJB.

Never said the KJV was "wrong" just that it doesn't show the tense as well as others.

And Young's Literal (which is not a MV) states it clearly, it says a person who is born of God does not sin, and is not "able" to sin. But those who translated the NIV and ESV have completely changed the meaning of this verse, and you can see the effect, it introduces Lordship Salvation.

so I guess you teach that once you are saved, you never sin? I instead teach as John taught that once a person is saved, they have the spirit in them and will not make a habit of sinning. Will they sin? Of course. Be a true believer will repent and grow.

 

[Winman]

Never said the KJV was "wrong" just that it doesn't show the tense as well as others.
so I guess you teach that once you are saved, you never sin? I instead teach as John taught that once a person is saved, they have the spirit in them and will not make a habit of sinning. Will they sin? Of course. Be a true believer will repent and grow.

The verse is not saying a Christian can never sin, but it is saying a Christian can never sin when under the influence of the Spirit. It is impossible to sin while being led of the Spirit.

You will sometimes have Christians say God (the Spirit) led them to do something that is wrong. This is impossible, the Spirit cannot sin or lead a person to sin. So, you can know for a fact that they were not led of the Spirit to do this thing.

 

[jbh28]

The verse is not saying a Christian can never sin, but it is saying a Christian can never sin when under the influence of the Spirit. It is impossible to sin while being led of the Spirit.

You will sometimes have Christians say God (the Spirit) led them to do something that is wrong. This is impossible, the Spirit cannot sin or lead a person to sin. So, you can know for a fact that they were not led of the Spirit to do this thing.

Winman, it says that one born of God (a believer) cannot sin. What you are saying is right to a degree. The problem is that it doesn't say we don't sin when we are being led by the Spirit, it simply says "cannot sin."

We can sin. When we do, we are letting the flesh win. But a true believer will not make a practice of that. This will not be the norm. Why? Because the Spirit is in that person. A true believer will follow the spirit. I John 1:8-9 clearly teaches that a believer can sin and that he's a liar if he says he has no sin.

(1Jn 3:9-10) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


How do we know if a person is a child of God? The child of God will be evident by their outward actions. A child of God will not commit(in an ongoing sense) sin. Will he sin? will one born of God sin? Yes (1 John 1:8-9) but he will not make a practice of this? Why? Because he is born of God. It's not that he in himself is better, but because He has the Spirit in him. He's a new creature as Paul states elsewhere. This is contrasted with those that are not believers (children of the devil) by their non Righteous acts and their not showing love to their brother.

Remember, we are not saved by works. (Ephesians 2:8-9) We are however saved to good works. (Eph 2:10). A true believe will be different from a unbeliever. They will not be perfect, but will repent.

 

[freeatlast]

The verse is not saying a Christian can never sin, but it is saying a Christian can never sin when under the influence of the Spirit. It is impossible to sin while being led of the Spirit.

You will sometimes have Christians say God (the Spirit) led them to do something that is wrong. This is impossible, the Spirit cannot sin or lead a person to sin. So, you can know for a fact that they were not led of the Spirit to do this thing.

Your suggesting the basic same teaching that the Gnostics taught although altered to some extent.

 

[Winman]

Your suggesting the basic same teaching that the Gnostics taught although altered to some extent.

Nice, you resort to name-calling.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

This verse says all Christians are led by the Spirit, yes?

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Paul shows here that the Christian is still influenced by the flesh. There is an internal war going on. Otherwise it would not be necessary to repeatedly tell believers to submit to the Spirit and word of God and to deny the flesh.

All 1 Jn 3:9 is saying is that a person being led by the Spirit cannot sin. It is impossible. It is just as impossible for a person to walk in the flesh and not sin.

Much of Paul's teaching does not make sense if your doctrine is true. Why would Paul constantly warn and preach against sin if it were not a problem for Christians? It would be completely unnecessary. The fact that he preached so often against sin confirms the fact that we retain the flesh and have to constantly battle it.

Everybody "practices" sin. You may not practice it as often as others, but you still practice sin if you sin at all.

I am not condoning sin at all, but if you think you have overcome sin you are deceiving yourself. As in the garden of Eden, you only have to sin ONCE.

 

[Arbo]

righteousdude2, you know what I came to realize a while back?

Our Lord no where in His Word tells us to walk the isle; to go on visitation every Thursday evening; to wear a suit to Church every Sunday morning; to argue doctrine; to tell others they are wrong; to present ourselves as the keeper of all knowledge; to gossip/discuss others in Church; to read our Bible through every year; to handle snakes; to speak in tongues; along with a thousand of other issues that many people believe in and practice on a daily basis.

What our Lord Jesus does tell us is..., To Follow Him.

I think that's amazing! When you get right down to it..., that's amazing! Our God who created a universe without end, hung millions of galaxies in His universe, with millions of start to fill each, named them all, has instructed us to merely Follow Him. It can't get any easier than that.

Unfaithful men on the other hand seem to be unable to accept what He has provided for us and spend much time creating on their own. Mankind is so foolish. So ignorant. So backwards.

Personally, I've almost come to the conclusion that to even engage in back and forth effort to argue who's right and who's wrong is sin in itself. Our Lord Jesus presented Himself as the Good Sheppard. In His day, a Sheppard was the lowest of the low in their society. As such, I should jump up in the air trying to impress everyone around me of my vast knowledge, insights and wisdom? Not hardly.

My Lord told me to Follow Him. I'm happy with that and totally satisfied with being a Sheppard in His Name. Praise the Lord!

I've never heard it put quite like that, and I believe you are right. Thanks for tonight's food for thought.

 

[righteousdude2]

That is a Word for This Moment in Time.

righteousdude2, you know what I came to realize a while back?

Our Lord no where in His Word tells us to walk the isle; to go on visitation every Thursday evening; to wear a suit to Church every Sunday morning; to argue doctrine; to tell others they are wrong; to present ourselves as the keeper of all knowledge; to gossip/discuss others in Church; to read our Bible through every year; to handle snakes; to speak in tongues; along with a thousand of other issues that many people believe in and practice on a daily basis.

What our Lord Jesus does tell us is..., To Follow Him.

I think that's amazing! When you get right down to it..., that's amazing! Our God who created a universe without end, hung millions of galaxies in His universe, with millions of start to fill each, named them all, has instructed us to merely Follow Him. It can't get any easier than that.

Unfaithful men on the other hand seem to be unable to accept what He has provided for us and spend much time creating on their own. Mankind is so foolish. So ignorant. So backwards.

Personally, I've almost come to the conclusion that to even engage in back and forth effort to argue who's right and who's wrong is sin in itself. Our Lord Jesus presented Himself as the Good Sheppard. In His day, a Sheppard was the lowest of the low in their society. As such, I should jump up in the air trying to impress everyone around me of my vast knowledge, insights and wisdom? Not hardly.

My Lord told me to Follow Him. I'm happy with that and totally satisfied with being a Sheppard in His Name. Praise the Lord!

Extremely wise words, thanks!:thumbsup:

 

[righteousdude2]

You Have Proven a Biblical Point....

:tear:

No brothers have been condemned. If a person is saved they are saved and they are being lead of the spirit. If a person claims to be saved and they are walking in the flesh they are lost. Romans 8:4-9.
It is you who is condemning people by telling them they can be saved and walk (practice) in sin. All you do is lock them in a false hope and if they die like that you are responsible for their soul.
So I am glad He saved you too. It just did not happen when you think it did according to scripture as you admit that there was a time when you were not following the Lord but rather living (practicing sin).
1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Here are a couple good messages I would point you to if you want to hear the truth.
http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3
http://www.swordandtrowel.org/Player.aspx?code=2011-11-27-DG

.....And that is that the pronouncement of Ichabod over you and your theological stand and understanding. In Jesus name I proclaim the words of Ichabod (the glory - within you - has departed) over you! Furthermore, I am giving up on trying to reason with you. From this forward, you are on your own FAL! raying:

 

[jbh28]

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

This verse says all Christians are led by the Spirit, yes?

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Paul shows here that the Christian is still influenced by the flesh. There is an internal war going on. Otherwise it would not be necessary to repeatedly tell believers to submit to the Spirit and word of God and to deny the flesh.

So good, you agree that all believers have the Spirit in them. And you are correct. We are not perfect and still have the flesh.

All 1 Jn 3:9 is saying is that a person being led by the Spirit cannot sin. It is impossible. It is just as impossible for a person to walk in the flesh and not sin.

No, it says nothing even close to that. It says those born of God, not those while they are walking in the Spirit.

Much of Paul's teaching does not make sense if your doctrine is true. Why would Paul constantly warn and preach against sin if it were not a problem for Christians? It would be completely unnecessary. The fact that he preached so often against sin confirms the fact that we retain the flesh and have to constantly battle it.

Well, I'm not going to answer for FAL, but I would never teach that a Christian cannot sin. The difference is that a believer isn't just flesh. A believer has the Spirit and there will be a difference.

Everybody "practices" sin. You may not practice it as often as others, but you still practice sin if you sin at all.

By "practicing" we mean ongoing, non repentant sin.

I am not condoning sin at all, but if you think you have overcome sin you are deceiving yourself. As in the garden of Eden, you only have to sin ONCE.

Right, we must repent of our sins. We will sin, but must not make a practice of it. It shouldn't be part of the normal activities. When we do sin, we should repent of that sin. That's the point of church discipline. When believers fall, we are to bring them to repentance. When one doesn't repent, we then treat them as an unbeliever because they are acting like an unbeliever.

 

[Winman]

So good, you agree that all believers have the Spirit in them. And you are correct. We are not perfect and still have the flesh.

No, it says nothing even close to that. It says those born of God, not those while they are walking in the Spirit.

Well, I'm not going to answer for FAL, but I would never teach that a Christian cannot sin. The difference is that a believer isn't just flesh. A believer has the Spirit and there will be a difference.

By "practicing" we mean ongoing, non repentant sin.
Right, we must repent of our sins. We will sin, but must not make a practice of it. It shouldn't be part of the normal activities. When we do sin, we should repent of that sin. That's the point of church discipline. When believers fall, we are to bring them to repentance. When one doesn't repent, we then treat them as an unbeliever because they are acting like an unbeliever.

The scriptures never tell us to repent of sin. Show it, you can't.

No other book explains how to be saved more than the book of John. How many times is the word repent or repentance shown in John? ZERO!

How many times is the word believe or believeth shown in John? Over 90 times!

To repent means to turn from trusting in one's own righteousness to save themselves and to trust or depend 100% on Jesus alone to save you.

Works do not save you, and works will not keep you saved, you must trust on Jesus alone to save you.

 

[righteousdude2]

More of the Same from FAL....

Your suggesting the basic same teaching that the Gnostics taught although altered to some extent.

:sleeping_2:.....You'd think his fingers would get tired, or even a spiritual cramp from pointing it at so many others on this forum. :laugh:

Join with me and proclaim "Ichabod" over FAL and his theology. :thumbsup:

 

[jbh28]

The scriptures never tell us to repent of sin. Show it, you can't.

Seriously, never should repent of your sin? You may want to seriously look at your Bible again. Are you seriously saying that the Bible never tells anyone to repent of their sin? The Bible teaches that we should just continue to sin all we want?

No other book explains how to be saved more than the book of John. How many times is the word repent or repentance shown in John? ZERO!

1) Irrelevant if taught in another book
2) I'm not talking about how to be saved.

How many times is the word believe or believeth shown in John? Over 90 times!

To repent means to turn from trusting in one's own righteousness to save themselves and to trust or depend 100% on Jesus alone to save you.

Works do not save you, and works will not keep you saved, you must trust on Jesus alone to save you.

The rest of this was irrelevant. Please read what I write. First, there is no salvation outside of repentance. Jesus clearly taught this. Anything short of this is false. However, I'm been speaking about a person that is already a believer. So try again with my previous post. Repentance to salvation is another topic. This is about someone that is already a believer.

 

[convicted1]

Luke 13
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


Mark 1
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:



Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.



2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.



Repentance is a very important ingredient in salvation. Take it away, and you have no salvation. Salvation means to turn to God, but when one turns to God, they, in effect, turn away from "self" and their sins, knowing that without Him, they would die lost.

 

[DHK]

Luke 13
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

This has nothing to do with salvation. Note the word perish. Such judgments could come upon them also. This is pre-cross. The gospel in its entirety is found in the epistles. You won't find any hint of repentance needed for salvation in the epistles.

Mark 1

14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Again, pre-cross. Speaking to the Jews about the kingdom of God. Jesus hadn't even died yet.

Acts 17:30

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

This is the closest you get. But even a Calvinist disagrees to some extent with this verse. Acts is a historical book, and a book of transition. Go to the epistles for doctrine.

Mark 2:17

When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Again, pre-cross. Jesus had not yet died.

Luke 5:32

I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Same as above.

Luke 24:47

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Luke's version of the Great Commission. It is put better in Mark and Matthew.

2 Corinthians 7:10

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

This has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with the repentance of a believer from a specific sin that he committed. That is what repentance is for.

Repentance is a very important ingredient in salvation. Take it away, and you have no salvation. Salvation means to turn to God, but when one turns to God, they, in effect, turn away from "self" and their sins, knowing that without Him, they would die lost.

--Your point is taken. But consider all the times we are told that salvation is by faith. Study the book of Romans, a great treatise on soteriology. Many times he emphasizes that salvation is by faith.
"Being justified by faith we have peace with God.
Why?
What happens when a person trusts the Lord by faith?
By faith he receives him as Lord of his life. When Christ becomes Lord, He becomes the object of his faith. The object of his faith is no longer the world, self, materialism, etc. It is Christ, and Christ alone. He has turned from the direction of the sinful world to the direction of Christ.

What is repentance?
It is a change of attitude with respect to God. Once a person was living in sin rebellious toward God. He repents. His mind has changed. He now has a new attitude toward God, one that is in submission to God, as Lord.
Now, I ask you: Is the definition of repentance that I gave any different than the definition than the definition of faith, or receiving Christ by faith? No. The two are basically the same, or one is the flip side of the coin; Repentance is the other side of the coin of faith. You can't have faith without repentance. Repentance doesn't have to be mentioned in the NT, or the epistles, because it is not necessary. One repents when he believes.

 

[convicted1]

This has nothing to do with salvation. Note the word perish. Such judgments could come upon them also. This is pre-cross. The gospel in its entirety is found in the epistles. You won't find any hint of repentance needed for salvation in the epistles.

Again, pre-cross. Speaking to the Jews about the kingdom of God. Jesus hadn't even died yet.

This is the closest you get. But even a Calvinist disagrees to some extent with this verse. Acts is a historical book, and a book of transition. Go to the epistles for doctrine.

Again, pre-cross. Jesus had not yet died.

Same as above.

Luke's version of the Great Commission. It is put better in Mark and Matthew.

This has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with the repentance of a believer from a specific sin that he committed. That is what repentance is for.

--Your point is taken. But consider all the times we are told that salvation is by faith. Study the book of Romans, a great treatise on soteriology. Many times he emphasizes that salvation is by faith.
"Being justified by faith we have peace with God.
Why?
What happens when a person trusts the Lord by faith?
By faith he receives him as Lord of his life. When Christ becomes Lord, He becomes the object of his faith. The object of his faith is no longer the world, self, materialism, etc. It is Christ, and Christ alone. He has turned from the direction of the sinful world to the direction of Christ.

What is repentance?
It is a change of attitude with respect to God. Once a person was living in sin rebellious toward God. He repents. His mind has changed. He now has a new attitude toward God, one that is in submission to God, as Lord.
Now, I ask you: Is the definition of repentance that I gave any different than the definition than the definition of faith, or receiving Christ by faith? No. The two are basically the same, or one is the flip side of the coin; Repentance is the other side of the coin of faith. You can't have faith without repentance. Repentance doesn't have to be mentioned in the NT, or the epistles, because it is not necessary. One repents when he believes.

What is repentance? Turning away from one's self, and turning to God. Without turning to God(repentance) you can't be saved.

 

[Winman]

Willis, you have to look at the context when repentance is spoken of.

Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Jesus told these persons they needed to repent, and he explained what they needed to repent of, believeing they were better than others.

Mat 4:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

John the Baptist told these Pharisees and Sadducees they needed to repent, and he explained exactly what they needed to repent of. They needed to repent of the false belief that they were saved simply because they were descended from Abraham.

In Acts 17 Paul told the Greeks they needed to repent of believeing in false Gods and idols and believe in the one true God.

So, repentance is a turning from any false belief that we are righteous of ourselves, or that we can inherit salvation, or that religion can save us, and trust in Jesus alone to save us.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

What are we to repent of here? DEAD WORKS. You cannot save yourself by turning over a new leaf or promising to stop sinning, we must place faith in Jesus alone to save us.

 

[convicted1]

Willis, you have to look at the context when repentance is spoken of.

Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Jesus told these persons they needed to repent, and he explained what they needed to repent of, believeing they were better than others.

Mat 4:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

John the Baptist told these Pharisees and Sadducees they needed to repent, and he explained exactly what they needed to repent of. They needed to repent of the false belief that they were saved simply because they were descended from Abraham.

In Acts 17 Paul told the Greeks they needed to repent of believeing in false Gods and idols and believe in the one true God.

So, repentance is a turning from any false belief that we are righteous of ourselves, or that we can inherit salvation, or that religion can save us, and trust in Jesus alone to save us.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

What are we to repent of here? DEAD WORKS. You cannot save yourself by turning over a new leaf or promising to stop sinning, we must place faith in Jesus alone to save us.

Brother Winman, that is what we do when we turn to God(repentance). We turn to Him for His salvation, and away from trying to save ourselves. If we don't turn to Him, we can't be saved.

 

[JesusFan]

No brothers have been condemned. If a person is saved they are saved and they are being lead of the spirit. If a person claims to be saved and they are walking in the flesh they are lost. Romans 8:4-9.
It is you who is condemning people by telling them they can be saved and walk (practice) in sin. All you do is lock them in a false hope and if they die like that you are responsible for their soul.
So I am glad He saved you too. It just did not happen when you think it did according to scripture as you admit that there was a time when you were not following the Lord but rather living (practicing sin).
1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Here are a couple good messages I would point you to if you want to hear the truth.
http://www.gerald285.com/web_media/BirthmarksofaBeliever.32.mp3
http://www.swordandtrowel.org/Player.aspx?code=2011-11-27-DG

A Christian still has the flesh/sin principle to deal with, see Apostle paul and John, and still have the option to freely chose to either walk in their flesh or in the HS!

Yielding to the flesh will yield bad fruit, as in loss of rewards, loss of effective witness, loss of peace and fellowship with God, lack of answered prayers etc until they confess and repent to God in order to be restored back again...

IF they choose to yield to the HS, will have Him produce good fruit and faithful living, and basically opposite of all those things listed IF abiding in the flesh!

 

[jbh28]

Winman, I'm still waiting your reply on the post that was about repentance after salvation.