Religion of Envy

[/qb]</font>[/QUOTE]You have YET to show where it says that we must believe that Jesus is GOD in order to be saved, and that Jesus MUST BE God, in order to have the power to save!

The reason you have nothing more to say, is because the thing that you are INSISTING is fact, you have no scriputral support for, so I can understand you inability to explain yourself.

That makes sense.

God Bless [/QB][/QUOTE]

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
In the KJV the word “he” is italicized, meaning that the translators inserted it there for clarity. It is not in the original. Jesus said plainly, “I am,” here also referring to the “I am” of Exodus 3:14. He is saying I am Jehovah. He uses the Greek verb eimi, to be. I am the all existent one, the one who has existed from all eternity. It is the same word used in John 8:58, for which cause the Jews took up stones and tried to stone Him. They considered that He was committing blasphemy by claiming Himself to be Jehovah when He said “I am,” making Himself God. If you do not believe that I am Jehovah you shall die in your sins (and suffer eternal torment).
DHK

BTW, I still await your answer in the trinity thread. You cannot refute those verses can you?

 

Isa.43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,

There is only one Lord, only one God, only one Saviour. There is no other God formed, or proceeded forth. Neither shall there be after me. “I am the Lord (Jehovah) and beside me there is no saviour.
There is only one Lord and Saviour. That Lord and Saviour according to the New Testament is Jesus Christ. Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. There is no other way. Jesus Christ is Lord. He is God. There is none other. Unless you believe in Him there is no salvation. He is the Most High God.
DHK

 

DHK,

As it has been proven time and again, scholarly study is no greater than personal study, and I just so happen to trust the Bible over scholarly study.

Luke 1: 19. And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
---Gabriel must be God TOO!! He said 'I am'! In the Greek he said 'ego eimi'. I am.

Luke 7: 6. Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof:
---Now the Centurion is God! He said 'I am', but in the Greek we see 'eimi'. 'I am'.

John 3: 28. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
---John is also God according to your reconing because he also said 'ego eimi'. 'I am'.

John 7: 28. Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence 1. I am: and 2.I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29. But I know him: for 3. I am from him, and he hath sent me.
---Now it get's interesting. Jesus is talking again. He said you know 'whence' (from where)1. 'I am'...which is 'eimi' (oops), and 2. 'I am come' which is 'erchomai' (remember that one). And then He reminds us that He that sent Him is true, and we don't know Him, but HE knows Him BECAUSE He is FROM Him and He sent Him. 3. 'I am' which is 'eimi' (again). I am.

John 8: 16. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for 1.I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.... 18. 2.I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
---1. 'I am' which is 'eimi' and 2. 'I am' which is AGAIN 'ego eimi'. I am not alone, and I am the one that bears witness of myself, AND the Father that SENT me bears witness also. I am.

John 10:36. Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
---And here we see Him taking rebuke because He said that He and His Father are 'One'. When they accused Him of saying that He was God, He answered them by saying He was NOT claiming to be God, but that He claimed to BE the Son of God. And again 'I am' is 'eimi'. I am.

Acts 10: 21. Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
---Now Peter is God! And once again the 'I am' is 'ego eimi'. I am.

Gal 4: 18. But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.
---Paul is God now! 'I am' is 'par eimi' which means 'I am present'. SO, Paul must be the God that is always with us!!!

Rev 22: 16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
---Jesus sent HIS Angel to testify to US these things, that He is the ROOT and OFFSPRING of David, and the Bright and Morning Star. (let there be light anyone?) AND AGAIN 'I am' is 'ego eimi'. I am.

By the way 'eimi' means 'I exist'. In the case of you saying the word is the same from the Hebrew to the Greek, you are right, but according to your logic, that 'I am' means that He is claiming to be God, would also mean that we need to add these folks to the Pantheon:

Gabriel
Anonymous Centurion (the nameless god)
John
Peter
Paul

Hmmmm.

I think I like my reasoning better.

God Bless

 

DHK,

This is what YOU just did:

Rev 22: 18. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

AGAIN.

Does it SAY that He said 'I am Jehovah'?????

NO!

You are the one who is commiting blasphemy, and being a heretic, for you add to the Word of God to MAKE it suit your false doctrines!

You are in NO position to cast judgment upon my, or my Salvific state!

Who do you think you are????????????????

 

You like your reasoning better because it fits into your preconceived ideas and your heretical ideas. It is also illogical and fallacious. Normally eimi needs an object, as it has in the cases that you have just quoted. For example the Centurion did not just come out and say, "I am." No, he said, "I am the centurion." I am coming. I am going. I am this or that. Look carefully. Your examples have an object. When Jesus said "I am" he referred to the "I am" of Exodus 3:14, the Great I am of the Old Testament, Jehovah Himself. There was no other reason for the Jews to pick up stones to stone him. They knew exactly what he meant. You apparently don't.
DHK

 

Yes it does. That is precisely what "I am" means, as is evidenced by the attempted stoning of the Jews.

I have not added to the Word of God one iota. but I have rightly divided it, showing you faithfully what it means. If you reject it then you will suffer the consequences.

The Muslim believes that Christ is only a prophet and not God. He is not saved and will spend an eternity in Hell.
The Hindu counts Jesus as one of many gods. He is not saved and will spend an eternity in Hell.
3AM if you, like them do not believe that Jesus Christ is the One and only God, you also will suffer the same fate.
BTW, the Bible commands us to judge:

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

I am simply the messenger. God's Word is the message. You still have failed to address it in the trinity thread.
DHK

 

"and ye know whence 1. I am"
"2.I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not."
"But I know him: for 3. I am from him, and he hath sent me."

All statements with an 'object'.

"for 1.I am not alone"
"I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me."

Again statements with an 'object'.

"because I said, I am the Son of God?"

Statement with the most OBVIOUS object that He is the SON of God.

"I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

Again, with an object.

You are wrong.

Blind guide.

 

SHK,

And where is your righteous judgment when it comes to keeping the commandments of God?

Where is your 'rightly dividing' the Word when it comes to the state of the dead confirmed in over 50 verses?

You are wrong.

I have NO reason, and neither do the people here, to trust your judgment.

Blind Guide.

That's you.

 

3AM,
Look again at your own examples. The "I am" in each example needs an object or a prepositional phrase, or the rest of the sentence to complete the thought. You have only proved yourself wrong. Where is the logic in that. The only statement that stands by itself is when Jesus says "I am," referring back to Jehovah, who also said, "I am."
Jesus is Jehovah.
DHK

 

Those issues have been discussed quite thoroughly on other threads. You know by now that the majority of this board disagree with you and can prove you wrong. You also know that until Ellen G. White came along no one believed in these doctrines. Were all the believers wrong in the doctrine and spiritually blind for 1800 years?
DHK

 

DHK,

You do greatly err because you DO NOT KNOW of the things that God has said.

You twist and contort and ADD (as you have done before) to the Word of God, to make it say what you want it to say.

Your SHINING example here in this thread has shown all of us your true colors.

If you want to discuss this further go back to the trinity thread, and quit derailing this one.

OH By the way,

Matthew 7: 1. Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4. Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

John 5: 22. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Romans 2:1. Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Romans 14: 8. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

1 Cor 2: 9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

James 4: 10. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
11. Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

And finally, if you want to continue carrying on after several here have rebuked you, and the Bible is my only Stand, then I have but one thing left to say to you:

"Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them."

We're done.

 

What I have shown through the Scriptures on this thread is that Jesus Christ is God. You deny this. Those who deny the deity of Christ are not Christians, and will some day stand before the Great White Throne Judgement at the Second Resurrection. Christ, the Most High God, will be your judge, not your Saviour unless you change your views concerning Him, and trust the Eternal One who died for you.
DHK

 

DHK:

John 8:23-26 is a result of the message Jesus was trying to get across in
verse 12. ("I am the light of the world").

When he said in vs 24 that "...if ye believe not that I am HE, ye shall die in your sins.",
Jesus was again driving home the point that it is necessary to believe that He is the
savior, the light of the world, our redeemer etc. He was not saying that it is necessary
to believe that He is God. The whole chapter refers to his intention to make those
listeners believe that he came as their savior. The inscription at the top of the KJV
bible for that chapter reads....."Christ preacheth himself the light of the world".

I believe that Jesus is God too, but for the 20 some odd years that I didn't even
know the issue existed, I was also saved. This is just another of those controversial
subjects that is not a requirement to salvation.

I was saved when I first confessed with my mouth and believed in my heart,
regardless of whether I knew and understood the issue of Jesus being God.
It isn't even included in many Gospel tracts and instruction.

Singer

 

Singer,
I don't totally understand your situation or position in regards to your salvation experience. Most people who get saved have a far more difficult time with the terms "Son of God" and "Son of Man," than the concept that Jesus is God. My ten year old has no problem understanding the deity of Christ, but would have a difficult time explaining the terms Son of God, and Son of Man.

So when you get saved you did you call on to be saved? Was it the LORD Jesus Christ? What does the word Lord mean to you? The Lord of Lords, and King of Kings? Who is He Lord of? In our terminology does not Lord automatically imply that He is God. It always did to me. Who else would you call Lord with a capital L? Used as a title of respect it is never capitalized. Lord or LORD always refers to God. and LORD refers to Jehovah.

Faith has an object. My faith is in Jesus Christ. But who is Jesus Christ. If He is not God, then He is just a man. If He is just a man then He has no power to save. If that is the case, then it is impossible for anyone who takes that position to be saved.

If you were ignorant of these issues and never thought them out that is one thing. I suppose that is possible. But it baffles me that one could possibly believe on Christ without realizing that He is God.

3AM on the other hand adamantly denies the deity of Christ. That is the difference. She has been presented the evidence and has refused it. She has committed the same sin that the Jews who crucified Jesus did. They realized that He was the Messiah, that He was innocent of the charges brought upon him, and they crucified him anyway. When you have the light and reject the light, you will suffer a terrible fate.
DHK

 

DHK:

Okay....you're a Baptist.
You must approve of the approach that Baptists use in witnessing.
Above the Topic list on every window of this forum is an invitation to the lost.
I went through and set aside all of the verses used in that invitation.
There are only five and they are listed below. There is nothing to
indicate that it is necessary (or even a fact) that Jesus is God. On the other
hand, it only mentions that :

1. Christ died for us
2. "He that believeth on the Son"
3. Wrath of God
4. "Believeth on Him that sent Me

Here they are :
*********************************************************
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)

"For the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23a).

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in
that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8).

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he
that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath
of God abideth on him" (John 3:36)

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall
not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24).
***********************************************************

There is literally NO evidence or indication that Jesus is God in those verses.

Does that mean that the invitation used by this Baptist Board is wrong ?
A person could pray the prayer offered on here and still have never
even been confronted with the theory you propose.

Alot of the people I witness to are struggling to even believe in a creator
of heaven and earth, let alone their need to understand the God/Jesus
connection. I don't think even a mature Christian has the ability to
fully understand that. It remains a mystery.

Singer

 

(DHK)
So when you get saved you did you call on to be saved? Was it the
LORD Jesus Christ? What does the word Lord mean to you? The Lord
of Lords, and King of Kings? Who is He Lord of? In our terminology
does not Lord automatically imply that He is God. It always did to me.
Who else would you call Lord with a capital L? Used as a title of respect
it is never capitalized. Lord or LORD always refers to God. and LORD
refers to Jehovah.

(Singer)
I can agree with you re those questions, but if you would approach
a new potential convert with them I think you'd scare him away.
The verses from the invitation to accept Christ in my above post
should be sufficient in witnessing. Do you know of any tracts used
in witnessing that can fully explain the God/Jesus connection ?

(DHK)
Faith has an object. My faith is in Jesus Christ. But who is Jesus Christ.
If He is not God, then He is just a man. If He is just a man then He has
no power to save. If that is the case, then it is impossible for anyone who
takes that position to be saved.

(Singer)
It's quite probable that anyone standing at an altar call or becoming
saved in his living room doesn't even have the foggiest idea that it even
matters. Furthermore, is not calling on the name of the Lord enough?

Remember how Helen said it's not necessary to understand the intricate
workings of the helicopter that brought the lifeline to the drowning man
in order to be delivered from drowning... !

(DHK)
But it baffles me that one could possibly believe on Christ
without realizing that He is God.

(Singer)
I think it's quite common, actually. We are asked to believe that
Jesus died in our stead and rose from the grave......not asked to
understand the complexity of the Godhead. 3AM complies.

(DHK)
3AM on the other hand adamantly denies the deity of Christ. That is
the difference. She has been presented the evidence and has refused it.
She has committed the same sin that the Jews who crucified Jesus did.
They realized that He was the Messiah, that He was innocent of the charges
brought upon him, and they crucified him anyway. When you have
the light and reject the light, you will suffer a terrible fate.

(Singer)
The Jews hadn't invited Christ in to their lives like 3AM has.
The spirit is evident in her. She has gone through the steps of salvation
as outlined on this Baptist forum. She would qualify in any evangelical
church as being saved. The Jews only saw evidence that Jesus was
the Christ...they hadn't received His spirit within and were not going
about proclaiming it as 3AM is. That's the difference in "having the Son"
and not having the Son.

Singer

[ April 10, 2003, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Singer ]

 

Singer, in an evangelical church 3AM would probably be assumed to be saved unless someone brought up the subject of the Trinity and she was open about disagreeing that it's in the Bible.

At that point some people would probably decide she's not saved.

But if the subject never came up, it might never occur to them that she didn't believe the doctrine of the Trinity. They might well continue to assume she was saved, unless some other difference in doctrine that they considered 'essential doctrine' surfaced.

Which I find somewhat ironic.

Helen/AITB

 

Singer, a tract is normally used as a guideline when witnessing. It is rare for a person to get saved on just the merits of one reading of a single simle tract. Most people who get saved here the gospel many, many times before they get saved. When going door to door witnessing, I may give a tract, or even use a tract, but I will spend 5 to 15 minutes or more explainig the plan of salvation (what the tract is all about) to the person. I don't believe in easy believism. "Read these four steps. Pray this prayer, and bang your saved." You are right, I don't believe that is salvation. Repetition of a prayer is not what is meant by calling on the name of the Lord, nor can it save you.
If a person does not know who they are trusting as their Saviour it is doubtful that they are saved. In their minds their god may be no different than Allah, the way you are describing it. Who is Jesus Christ? Just a prophet like Mohammed? Is that who you (not personally) are trusting? If the person doesn't realize that Christ is the creator, God himself, then how is he any different from Mohammed? Why not trust Mohammed over Christ. What makes Christ so special?
More importantly when you witness to a person don't you tell them the reason why Christ could die for your sins? Why? What made it possible that Christ could take away your sins? Why, for example could not DHK die for the sins of Singer? For two reasons: One is that I am not perfect: I also am a sinner. Mankind needs a perfect sacrifice--"the just for the unjust that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but quickened by the Spirit." Second, He had to be God in order to die for the sins of all mankind of all generations of the world. I am a finite being, and even if I were perfect, would be able to die for only one person. Only God can die for all people, of all generations. That is why He could die for you. The great demonstration that He is God was His resurrection. I explain these things witnessing to an individual. They need to know. I don't believe in easy believism.
DHK

 

Most tracts are very shallow and are only meant to be guidelines. But yes I do know of some tracts that explain the things that you mention.

(Singer)
[QUOTEIt's quite probable that anyone standing at an altar call or becoming
saved in his living room doesn't even have the foggiest idea that it even
matters. Furthermore, is not calling on the name of the Lord enough?[/QUOTE]
I disagree. One must know who they are calling on. You might as well call on one of the Hindu deities to save you if you do not know who Jesus Christ is. Christ is one of their gods too.

Helen is right. But if I reach out to a helicopter that is also going down, what good is it going to do me?

(Singer)

I stated before that a person doesn't need to understand the trinity to be saved. That is a different matter. There are many new believers that don't understand the trinity. But there is no excuse for not believing that Christ is God. That is who you are trusting for the salvation of your sins. Otherwise how can you be saved?

(Singer)
The Jews hadn't invited Christ in to their lives like 3AM has.
The spirit is evident in her. She has gone through the steps of salvation
as outlined on this Baptist forum. She would qualify in any evangelical
church as being saved. The Jews only saw evidence that Jesus was
the Christ...they hadn't received His spirit within and were not going
about proclaiming it as 3AM is. That's the difference in "having the Son"
and not having the Son.
[/QB][/QUOTE]

Perhaps you haven't read enough of my posts to know what I believe.
As regarding SDA's, Catholics, Church of Christ, Oneness Pentecostal, and the others on this board who include works as part of their salvation, I don't believe they are saved. Asking Jesus into your heart does not save you as long as you are trusting in your own works to save you. All of these religions trust in their own works to save, whether it be baptism, the Sabbath, tongues, or some other work.
For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.
DHK

 

But 3AM has clearly said she believes salvation is by grace through faith.

What you believe about what she believes as an SDA is irrelevant if she says she doesn't believe in salvation by works. Read this post of hers:

I can imagine any SDA saying that either.

We don't believe that, or teach it, because it isn't in the Bible.

Salvation is by Grace through Faith.

NOT by works.

God Bless </font>[/QUOTE]Did you see that one? How can you claim she believes in salvation by works when she clearly says she doesn't?

But it's not going down, DHK.

Helen/AITB