Religion of Envy

I only took a quick look at some of the posts on this page and the previous page but from what I saw, I did not see any personal attacks.

I too believe that is only by grace through faith that a person can be saved. However that raises the questions of by who's grace and by faith in what? The answers are of course God's grace and faith in Christ. If you reject that Jesus is God, you reject that His life had infinite value to pay for the sin of all who put their trust in Him. Not only that you call Him a liar which raises the question of how do you have faith in somebody whom you do not believe? If you reject the gift of the Son of God as an atoning sacrifice for your sin (you can claim that He died for your sins but if you deny Christ's diety, you deny that He has the power to do what you claim to believe He did) you've rejected His grace and as there is no other sacrifice for sin, there is no other way for you to be saved.

It's a bit like Catholicism, they say that a person is saved by grace through faith but then deny by saying that's not enough. Those who deny that Jesus is God, deny who He is and it makes no sense for such a person to say that they have faith in Him.

The Jesus who atoned for sin by dying on a cross is God, and that's the Jesus that you must have faith in to be saved. A Jesus who is not God simply is not able to atone for the sins of the world.

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. - Philippians 2:5-11 NASB

 

I remember Pastor Larry saying something (on the C/A board) to the effect that it's inappropriate to make assertions about the eternal destiny of another BB member.

I admit that I forgot the exact thread or context.

Helen/AITB

 

I remember Pastor Larry saying something (on the C/A board) to the effect that it's inappropriate to make assertions about the eternal destiny of another BB member.

I admit that I forgot the exact thread or context.

Helen/AITB </font>[/QUOTE]Take another example then:

A person says they are saved by grace through faith but denies the resurrection. Do you think that such a person has come to a knowledge of the Truth?

 

Dear 3A,

You are correct. I am biased.

I say the following by way of information and not a personal attack upon you and that is that I agree with DHK that those who do not believe on Christ as incarnate diety will die in their sins.

This is my opinion based upon the following Scripture
(leaving out the italicised word he)

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.

I or DHK would be remiss once confronted by someone who denied the deity of Christ without pointing out this Scripture to them.
This I do by way of concern and not a personal attack.

I know that there has been quite a bit of conjecture concerning the John 8:58 passage
"before Abraham was I am".
The pharisees knew full well what He meant and wanted to kill Him because of His words, knowing that He referred to Exodus 3:14
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Apart from that I have found that almost all debates concerning the Trinity are useless because by the time one has enough knowledge to discuss the doctrine one's mind is made up and the result forthcoming is the works of the flesh railing for railing being exchanged as has been illustrated here in this thread.

In addition the true arian (at least originally) did not actually deny the deity of Christ but affirmed that the deity of Christ is one of form but not essence.
The Trinitarian such as myself would say that it is of both (form and essence).

Of form :
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

and of one essence with the Father.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Whether the original arian point of view fulfills the requirement of Christ' statement:

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.

I don't know but I truly hope that it is so.

HankD

 

Now...........

For all of us who believe that Jesus is God, we can't even explain how that
is possible. So we just live by faith ...?

*That's what I was doing all those years that I didn't even know it
was important to know Jesus is God.

And I know a few christians who very much "have the Son'' which is the
requirement for salvation. If it was necessary to "have the Father" it
shoud have said so. 1 John 5:11,12

St. John 1:18 "No man has seen God"

Yet we believe that those who saw Jesus were looking at God....?

 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

 

You forgot the rest of the verse:

18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. - John 1:18 NASB

 

" No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is
in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him". - John 1:18 NASB


(Singer)

Well that scripture makes it sound like there is a God AND a begotten
God. It clearly said He (the begotten God-Jesus) has explained Him (God the
Father.

 

One last morsel:

John 8:12. Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13. The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14. Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15. Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
20. These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
21. Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22. Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
30. As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Who did He say that He was from the BEGINNING?

Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

He is the Messiah, the promised Christ. RIGHT after He told her that God is a Spirit, and that His Father is God.

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Joh 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Joh 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

Joh 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

That's what it takes.

To forever eleviate any doubt....

\0/ Jesus is Lord! God has raised Him from the dead!

God Bless

 

I agree Singer, the NASB is a poor translation in that verse. It is translated from a different Greek text than the KJV which renders the verse as:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
--Nevertheless, the deity of Christ is still declared. In addition to the above verse consider the following:

2Pet.1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
--One usually only speaks of the majesty of God, who will not give his glory to another.

Jude 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.

Psalm 93:1 The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.
--This is actually a Messianic Psalm describing how Christ will some day rule His Kingdom, yet to come.
DHK

 

So, to forever alleviate any doubt. There is only one God. Is Jesus Christ the one and only Most High God?
DHK

 

So, to forever alleviate any doubt. There is only one God. Is Jesus Christ the one and only Most High God?
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]The thing is, DHK, God didn't appoint you as the gatekeeper of who is saved and who isn't. 3AM has entrusted God with her salvation. She is trusting God that Jesus who is her Savior and Lord really is able to save her. She's not assuming that 'good works' will get her into heaven; Jesus the Son of God is her sin-bearer and she is trusting Jesus for that. I don't really see you can build a substantive case that someone who is trusting Jesus for salvation will be barred entry to heaven by God.

Paul wrote this:

1 Cor 4:3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

Paul knew whose opinion mattered and whose didn't. 3AM has indicated she's going to be too busy to post here for a while anyway but even if she did I don't see any reason why she should submit to the questions of one who is taking it upon themself to find heresy in someone who is trusting the Lord to save her by grace through faith, because Jesus her Lord and Savior died for her.

If she's not exactly right about Jesus then so be it but - we all see through a glass darkly at present anyway.

God has the advantage that He can see her heart, her whole heart. He knows if her heart belongs to Him or not. Notwithstanding your attempts to demonstrate that she is not His.

Helen/AITB

 

Dear folks,

Rather than argue with and accuse one another (back and forth) let us "see" him in his glory.

Concerning John 1:18…

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Here is an amazing thing. In almost all the languages of this world the word "see" has a dual meaning.

1.) To see with the eyes.
2.) To understand with the mind,

Do you "see" these words?
Do you "see" what they mean?

Exodus 24
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Here they physically "saw" God with their eyes.

In John 1:18 we are told that no man has ever "seen" God.
How can both Scriptures be true?

John 1:18 means that no one has ever understood what God is really like until Jesus came and told us.

" the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

The word "declared" is interesting exegeomai.
This is what your pastor (or priest or whoever) does when he gives the message from the Word of God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…
14 And the Word (Logos) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Only begotten - monogenes,
This phrase means that Jesus (the Logos) is unique among the sons of God.
How so? He is eternal, this is my sense of " In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" This explains the relationship of the Son to the Father. He is begotten of the Father, that is He comes out of His bosom, out of His innermost being, out of His very essence.
Even if we do not comprehend the eternal state of the Logos we can "see" from His words how deep and intimate His relationship is with the Father.

When He came to us He voluntarily laid aside His glory which He had with the Father from the beginning.

Philippians 2
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

As a man He became a servant and so He could say "My Father is greater than I".

Before His death He prayed thus that His glory be restored…

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

No matter what or who He is or whether He is eternal or no, He at very least shared with the essence ("with thine own self") and the glory of the Father.

And so he was thus from cradle to grave and beyond...

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

1 Timothy 3
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Revelation 1
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


HankD

[ April 12, 2003, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

Thanks for the scripture, 3AM.
Thanks for the scripture, DHK.
Thanks for your common sense and gentle nature, Helen.

Thank you for giving us life, God.
Thank you for giving us your son Jesus, God.
Thank you for being one with your Father, Jesus.

Thank you for being a capable sacrifice for our sins, Jesus.
Thank you for the free gift and the promise of eternal life, God.
Thank you for coming to earth to die for us, God.

Thank you for indwelling us, Holy Spirit.
Thank you for the faith imparted to each of us.
Thank you for the mysteries that remain mysteries.

In Jesus' precious name,
Amen.

1 Corinthians 4:1
Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and
stewards of the mysteries of God.

 

Dear folks,

Someone somewhere on the BB said that the doctrine of the Trinity was unknown among the post apostolic fathers. I assume that person (or people) meant from before the council of Nicea.

As a Trinitarian, I just couldn't let this go by.
Here are a few quotes out of a multitude...

Theophilos of Antioch (180AD) Book 2, Chapter 15.
In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries,35 are types of the Trinity,36 of God, and His Word, and His wisdom.37 And the fourth is the type of man, who needs light, that so there may be God, the Word, wisdom, man.

Clement of Alexandria (200AD) in a message Parable of the Prodigal son
“And put a ring on his hand.” Here is the mystery of the Trinity; which is the seal impressed on those who believe.
“And put shoes on his feet,” for “the preparation of the Gospel of peace,”17 and the whole course that leads to good actions.

Clement of Alexandria (200AD) The Stromata.
So that when he says, “Around the king of all, all things are, and because of Him are all things; and he [or that] is the cause of all good things; and around the second are the things second in order; and around the third, the third,” I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father.183


Tertullian 220AD Against Praxeas Chapter 3.
The simple, indeed, (I will not call them unwise and unlearned, ) who always constitute the majority of believers, are startled at the dispensation25 (of the Three in One), on the ground that their very rule of faith withdraws them from the world’s plurality of gods to the one only true God; not understanding that, although He is the one only God, He must yet be believed in with His own oijkonomiva. The numerical order and distribution of the Trinity they assume to be a division of the Unity; whereas the Unity which derives the Trinity out of its own self is so far from being destroyed, that it is actually supported by it.

Tertullian 220AD Against Praxeas Chapter 12.
If the number of the Trinity also offends you, as if it were not connected in the simple Unity, I ask you how it is possible for a Being who is merely and absolutely One and Singular, to speak in plural phrase, saying, “Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness; ”128 whereas He ought to have said, “Let me make man in my own image, and after my own likeness,” as being a unique and singular Being? In the following passage, however, “Behold the man is become as one of us,”129 He is either deceiving or amusing us in speaking plurally, if He is One only and singular.

Hyppolytus 235AD Against the Heresy of Noetus
Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”265 And by this He showed, that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. The whole Scriptures, then, proclaim this truth.

Origen 250AD Summary (of Doctrine) Regarding the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
whereas the statements made regarding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity. For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence; while other things which are not included in it 23 are to be measured by times and ages.


HankD

[ April 12, 2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

Jesus is God. The Son has revealed the Father.

 

Dualhunter....Thanks.

Hank.........
It's gotta be simpler than what you describe.

Giving that mouthfull as a witness to a nonbeliever would probably
chase him off. For a fact they don't even understand simple English
on the subject and it's hard enough for them to understand how
the blood of Jesus can save them....let alone interjecting Hebrew,
dual meanings, historical facts and denominational interpretations.

What's wrong with saying..... "God sent his Son to pay the price for
our sins and if we believe, confess and believe that, He will fill us
with His Holy Spirit and we will become His children and will
inherit eternal life."

Do we have to disect every word. (Even the word believe is vulnerable
to scrutiny).

We're not always witnessing to brainsurgeons with a high IQ.

Some of them are redneck ranchers from Nebraska.

 

There's nothing wrong with that (except that it would be more accurate to say "if we believe in Him, that is Christ" rather than "if we believe that" simply because as shown by John 3:16, we are called to believe in a person, rather than a statement). The problem is simply that if you say that Jesus is not God you deny that he paid the price for our sins. That's the annoying part with dealing with heretical doctrines, the heretic makes a statement which is true but then makes a false statement which denies the first statement but they deny the denial.

This is good advice for everyone, whether saved or not:

5Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test? - 2 Corinthians 13:5 NASB

It is good to ask ourselves if the Jesus we believe in has the power to do what we believe He did.

 

Yes, it is for the most part but people were getting into hairsplitting and making what I considered challenging statements RE: The Trinity on this thread and so I felt I should respond.

Not only that but the Church fathers didn't have all the distractions of modern life to call them away from the study of the Word. So they were intense in their writings.

I remember a scientist telling me that he was saved because of the letter "M".

1 Corinthians 1: 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

It says "not many wise after the flesh".

It does not say "not any wise after the flesh".

That letter "M" makes a world of difference.

HankD

 

(Quote - Dualhunter)

"The problem iS simply that if you say that Jesus is not God you
deny that he paid the price for our sins."

"It is good to ask ourselves if the Jesus we believe in has the
power to do what we believe He did. "

(Singer)

Not trying to be argumentative here, but for comparison thinking:

1. If God equipped and authorized His Son to pay the price for our
sins, that wouldn't mean that He'd have to actually be His Father in
order to do so.

2. Jesus would have the power to do the task if His Father gave him
the means to do so....(again without actually being his Father).

*Jesus did say "The Father and I are one", but He definitely also said
"The Father has sent me".

During witnessing, I feel power in the statement that ..."Our creator came
in the flesh (He who made the world was in the world) to give Himself for
our sins.

But.............on the other hand, I can't imagine that 10 yr old who just
"accepted Jesus" is required to know the resolve of this great mystery
of the Trinity with their 'nonunderstanding' being the punishment of
eternal hellfire !!........