Religion of Envy

[DHK]

Originally posted by AITB:

DHK: Helen is right. But if I reach out to a helicopter that is also going down, what good is it going to do me?

[QB]

But it's not going down, DHK.

At first glance it seems that way, Helen. But if you have the wrong Jesus, then you have the wrong "helicopter." If Jesus is not God, Jesus cannot save, no matter how tightly you hang on.
DHK

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by AITB:

DHK: Helen is right. But if I reach out to a helicopter that is also going down, what good is it going to do me?

[QB]

But it's not going down, DHK.

At first glance it seems that way, Helen. But if you have the wrong Jesus, then you have the wrong "helicopter." If Jesus is not God, Jesus cannot save, no matter how tightly you hang on.
DHK

</font>

BUT - any Jesus who cannot save is not actually 3AM's Jesus because she believes in salvation through grace through faith. Inherent in that is that her Lord and Savior Jesus can save.

Anyway, what about the rest of my post? Are you going to admit you were wrong about 3AM believing in salvation by works?

Helen/AITB

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by AITB:

Anyway, what about the rest of my post? Are you going to admit you were wrong about 3AM believing in salvation by works?

Helen/AITB

Yes, I will admit that she says that salvation is by grace and not by works.
Saying and believing are two different things. Why does she (or at least the SDA doctrine to which she holds) teach that those who worship on Sunday and not on Saturday have the mark of the beast. Would not that imply salvation by works? It does to me.

Be that as it may, the larger issue with 3AM, and not necessarily with all SDA's is the deity of Christ. She adamantly refuses to admit that Christ is God--Jehovah, the Most High God. There is only one God. And, according to her Christ is not that God. That is heresy. I don't believe a person can be saved holding that belief.
To be fair, however, on the other thread (trinity revisited) Bob Ryan, also SDA, stated that he believes in the trinity. I can only conclude then that this must be a personal belief with 3AM.
DHK

 

[Singer]

(DHK)

At first glance it seems that way, Helen. But if you have the wrong
Jesus, then you have the wrong "helicopter." If Jesus is not God,
Jesus cannot save, no matter how tightly you hang on.


(Singer)

DHK, it's not possible to get down on your knees and pray to "God"
and thank Him for salvation offered as a gift through belief that His
Son, Jesus, died in our place on the cross, rose again and stands at the right
hand of God.........AND HAVE THE WRONG JESUS.

If it is, then it's an unending thing and you might be praying to the wrong
Jesus unless you stipulate with each prayer and each thought ; which
Jesus you mean.

We're not required to begin our prayers with "Lord Jesus, Holy Father, Creator
of Heaven and Earth, God Incarnate, Most High God...............

When we say "Thank you, Lord" we don't have to stipulate.

When I received Christ I didn't even think about stipulating.....and didn't
for 20 some years. He indwelled me regardless. He didn't send a fake.
He came Himself. He is the Holy Spirit, He is God, He made the world and
He was in the world and the world knew Him not, He is the Son who I
now have.

Luke 11:11
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he
give him a stone? or if [he ask] a fish, will he for a fish give him
a serpent?

When on our knees, will God send a fake Jesus to us...will He send
an impostor ? No !

Another question arises....Can we actually pray to the wrong God then
when inviting Jesus into our hearts ?

For me, I prayed to God, the Creator of Heaven and earth to give me
salvation and I was filled with a spirit. Do I question what spirit He
sent...? No Do I fear that I prayed to the wrong God...? No

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Singer:

DHK, it's not possible to get down on your knees and pray to "God"
and thank Him for salvation offered as a gift through belief that His
Son, Jesus, died in our place on the cross, rose again and stands at the right
hand of God.........AND HAVE THE WRONG JESUS.

How is it possible to write what you just wrote and not understand that Christ is God.
Only Christ, as God, could die in our place on the cross.
Only Christ, as God could rise again. The very fact that He did rise again proved that He was God. Did Mohammed, Confucius, or Buddha, ever rise from the dead?
Only Christ as God, can have the power to save you and forgive your sins. Christ forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.
DHK

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by DHK:
How is it possible to write what you just wrote and not understand that Christ is God.
Only Christ, as God, could die in our place on the cross.
Only Christ, as God could rise again. The very fact that He did rise again proved that He was God. Did Mohammed, Confucius, or Buddha, ever rise from the dead?
Only Christ as God, can have the power to save you and forgive your sins. Christ forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.
DHK

I can't answer how it's possible but I do know there are people who believe all those things about Christ but they don't believe the Bible teaches he is God.

Helen/AITB

 

[HankD]

Dear DHK,

Well done.

Matthew 5
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

HankD

 

[Singer]

(Helen)

I can't answer how it's possible but I do know there are people
who believe all those things about Christ but they don't believe
the Bible teaches he is God.

(Singer)

That's right Helen, and to answer DHK......I did just that myself for
20 some years and was no less saved for it. There are whole
denominations that do that. I grew up as a 2x2 (Cooneyite) and
their bible terminology is void of the term "Trinity". Yet there are
many Holy Spirit filled people among them who have accepted the
Lord of the bible, been born again, baptized. (They just think they're
the only ones who are right)...likewise many denominations.

If it was a different Jesus that they instructed me about in my
childhood, then you would have me yet possibly serving the wrong
Jesus. No, it was the same one and I just (after the fact) have
learned that HE is also GOD.

Is it wrong to grab that lifeline on the helicopter just because you don't
know if it has enough fuel to fly you to safety...? No, we do it on faith that
the one in control knows what he's doing. Same with salvation.

How's this for taking a stab at common sense :

The vacuum within our souls (God) that draws us to God the Creator
(God) is the working of the Holy Spirit (God) that causes us to accept
the sacrifice of Jesus Christ (God) (How could that ever end up in
reverence of a wrong Jesus) ? Wrong vacuum ?

How can we go wrong...how would a ''sorting out'' within our own minds
improve our chances of having the right Jesus. With there being NO CHANCE
that there is any other God that could hear us anyhow, isn't it an
unfounded fear . . ?

*Enter now the "Not everyone who says Lord Lord . etc." debate

 

[Singer]

Originally posted by HankD:
Dear DHK,

Well done.

Matthew 5
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

HankD

They all say that Hank. Catholics, cult members, the JWs, Mormons,
Baptists, Adventists......

 

[HankD]

They all say that Hank. Catholics, cult members, the JWs, Mormons,
Baptists, Adventists......

I know but DHK was the one mostly on the receiving end here in this thread. To the point that the BB rules of engagement were broken.


HankD

 

[AITB]

Hi Hank,

What do you mean that the 'BB rules of engagement were broken'?

Helen/AITB

 

[HankD]

2. Show grace to the other posters. When someone disagrees with you, discuss it; but be slow to offend, and eager to get into the Word and find the answers. Remember, when discussing passionate issues, it is easy to go too far and offend. Further, if we are "earnestly contending for the faith" it would be unrealistic not to expect at times to be misunderstood or even ridiculed. But please note that your words can sometimes be harsh if used in the wrong way. The anger of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

 

[AITB]

Ok, so are you saying DHK has kept them and is alone in doing so?

Helen/AITB

 

[HankD]

No, it was a mutual effort with DHK trailing behind in my estimation.
The end result was name-calling.

I personally was offended because I am Trinitarian.

Peace
HankD

 

[3AngelsMom]

HankD,

I can appreciate your intrest in cheering DHK on in his supposition to prove the trinity, if I was trinitarian I would rally behind the banner too.

But I think you should be aware of the reality of this discussion.

The whole reason that Helen (a trinitarian) and Singer (a trinitarian) are defending me (a non trinitarian) against DHK's attacks (a trinitarian) is because he is attacking me as a person, and telling me that I am lost and headed for hell because I don't agree with him.

I would have to say, that HIS actions are the ones not in line with that rule you posted.

God Bless

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by HankD:
No, it was a mutual effort with DHK trailing behind in my estimation.
The end result was name-calling.

I personally was offended because I am Trinitarian.

Peace
HankD

So, in fact, you praised DHK for being a Trinitarian, not for keeping what you cited as the 'rules of engagement'. It wasn't in fact based on who showed the most grace or who was slowest to offend.

Am I understanding you correctly?

Helen/AITB

 

[Singer]

Okay and thanks for getting that out of the way, Hank and Helen.

Originally posted by Singer:

DHK, it's not possible to get down on your knees and pray to "God"
and thank Him for salvation offered as a gift through belief that His
Son, Jesus, died in our place on the cross, rose again and stands at the
right hand of God.........AND HAVE THE WRONG JESUS.

Response by DHK:

How is it possible to write what you just wrote and not understand
that Christ is God.

(Singer)

First of all, I do understand that Christ is God. You may have been
referring to just anyone actually. Like too many biblical issues, there
seems to be no pat answers. I found that out early in my christianity.
I wanted to find the perfect church and hear the gospel truth. Twenty
six years later I'm still looking, but now I'm wise enough to understand
that one doesn't exist and that the gospel truth boils down to being
the simple truth that a savior has become a propitiation for my sins and
through the act of "confessing with my mouth and believing in my heart"
.....I am saved.

I did just that in response to an invitation to accept Christ and at the
time I had no idea that Christ was God.....except for the confusing terms
in the bible that seemed to contradict themselves. But anyhow, it seems
clear to me that Jesus is God and yet He prayed to someone other than
Himself, and He died on the cross and God didn't cease to exist.

The term "Gospel" itself was the term applied to the awareness of the
message put out by the 2x2 Fellowship. I grew up with that. Now it
doesn't appear to mean that at all from reading the bible. Hearing the
gospel means to become aware of the availability of salvation through
faith in the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

I'd be hard pressed to accuse anyone of not being saved just because
they didn't understand that Christ is God. The average human being
can't understand it once they KNOW it ANYHOW !!....... Right ???

Just some personal quips here.

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
The whole reason that Helen (a trinitarian) and Singer (a trinitarian) are defending me (a non trinitarian) against DHK's attacks (a trinitarian) is because he is attacking me as a person, and telling me that I am lost and headed for hell because I don't agree with him.

I'm an 'equal opportunity' defender

(I'd defend self-professed atheists if they were here and Christians were misrepresenting them or being rude to them)

Helen/AITB

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by AITB:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
The whole reason that Helen (a trinitarian) and Singer (a trinitarian) are defending me (a non trinitarian) against DHK's attacks (a trinitarian) is because he is attacking me as a person, and telling me that I am lost and headed for hell because I don't agree with him.

I'm an 'equal opportunity' defender

(I'd defend self-professed atheists if they were here and Christians were misrepresenting them or being rude to them)

Helen/AITB </font>[/QUOTE]For the record, I am not defending people or attacking people. I am defending a principle, or a theological position. That position is simply that Jesus Christ is God, the only God, and without that simple belief one cannot be saved. If that steps on peoples toes then so be it. In relation to that statement, which the Bible teaches, there have been many blasphemous and heretical things that have been said. Based on those things I can only draw certain and needful conclusions. The Bible commands us to stand for the truth and contend for the faith. In a public board like this heresy should never go unchecked.

If any person, regardless of who you are, has taken a position that Christ is not God, the Most High God, you are a heretic and cannot possibly be saved. I urge you to reconsider your position.
Sincerely,
DHK

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
HankD,

I can appreciate your intrest in cheering DHK on in his supposition to prove the trinity, if I was trinitarian I would rally behind the banner too.

But I think you should be aware of the reality of this discussion.

The whole reason that Helen (a trinitarian) and Singer (a trinitarian) are defending me (a non trinitarian) against DHK's attacks (a trinitarian) is because he is attacking me as a person, and telling me that I am lost and headed for hell because I don't agree with him.

I would have to say, that HIS actions are the ones not in line with that rule you posted.

God Bless

3AM count yourself lucky! ONENESS and I was told that also...PLUS MORE!

He has been a *bad boy.*

But, that's OK, we won't hold that against him.

MEE