Religion of Envy

[Dualhunter]

During witnessing, I feel power in the statement that ..."Our creator came
in the flesh (He who made the world was in the world) to give Himself for
our sins.

But.............on the other hand, I can't imagine that 10 yr old who just
"accepted Jesus" is required to know the resolve of this great mystery
of the Trinity with their 'nonunderstanding' being the punishment of
eternal hellfire !!........

God is the only creator. You don't need to understand every little doctrine to be saved, but a born again, Spirit indwelled, believer in Christ who has seen the Scripture should see that Jesus is Lord and God. When a person rejects this truth, it strongly suggests that the Spirit of God is not within them.

 

[Singer]

(Quote)

"God is the only creator. You don't need to understand every little
doctrine to be saved, but a born again, Spirit indwelled, believer
in Christ who has seen the Scripture should see that Jesus is Lord
and God. When a person rejects this truth, it strongly suggests that the
Spirit of God is not within them. "


(Singer)

Amen !

(Yet I keep thinking of deathbed conversions and children and how
it COULD be easily misunderstood and even totally missed
but yet with great desperation on their part to be saved)

 

[HankD]

One may wonder what kind of seed has been planted until it bears fruit.

HankD

 

[Singer]

Let's suppose that the fruit of receiving Jesus Christ as Lord will be
the same flavor as that which is realized from receiving Jesus
Christ as Lord God

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by AITB:
The thing is, DHK, God didn't appoint you as the gatekeeper of who is saved and who isn't. 3AM has entrusted God with her salvation. She is trusting God that Jesus who is her Savior and Lord really is able to save her. She's not assuming that 'good works' will get her into heaven; Jesus the Son of God is her sin-bearer and she is trusting Jesus for that. I don't really see you can build a substantive case that someone who is trusting Jesus for salvation will be barred entry to heaven by God.
[/QB]

You are being somewhat hypocritical in your answer Helen. You infer that I am the gatekeeper of Heaven, but by making the very same judgement you are making yourself the gatekeeper of heaven yourself. Who are you to say that 3AM actually has trusted the Christ of the Bible? You are making a judgement here that is unwarranted. Notice that 3AM will not answer the question I just asked of her, for clarity sake. It is easy to say Jesus is God. But when you clarify who Jesus is, it becomes a different matter doesn't it? The Mormons believe that Jesus is God, but certainly not the God of the Bible.

I will repeat my question to 3AM, and see if it bears any fruit: A direct Yes or No:

So, to forever alleviate any doubt. There is only one God. Is Jesus Christ the one and only Most High God?
DHK

 

[Dualhunter]

^ She made a thread stating that she would be gone for a while so she won't be answering your question any time soon.

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by DHK:
So, to forever alleviate any doubt. There is only one God. Is Jesus Christ the one and only Most High God?

I don't see how that alleviates all doubt. God knows the heart and that's what matters, not whether someone says 'yes' or 'no' to some question you have thought up, which you happen to think would alleviate all doubt.

Helen/AITB

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by AITB:

I don't see how that alleviates all doubt. God knows the heart and that's what matters, not whether someone says 'yes' or 'no' to some question you have thought up, which you happen to think would alleviate all doubt.

Rom.10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is salvation. If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead you shall be saved.
But who is the Lord Jesus? Is He the Mormon Jesus physically created between a god and a goddess? Is he the Muslim Jesus, only a prophet? Or is He God--the Most High God, creator of Heaven and earth? If you do not believe that Jesus is God, the only God, then you cannot be saved. It is that simple. See how many religions believe in Jesus, but not that He is God. That is heresy.
DHK

 

[Singer]

(DHK)
"This is salvation. If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and
believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead you shall be saved."

(Singer)

Amen brother; that statement brings chills down my spine and
tears to my eyes.

As the song goes......"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord"

I never considered that it meant to say "...confess that Jesus Christ
is God"

It could probably be translated as that, but it seems there is more evidence
and scripture that backs up the theory that it is only asking a person to
accept the Lord and His sacrifice on the cross, invite Him into one's life
("I stand at the door and knock") etc. and not asking a person to
acknowledge that He is the same person as God.

What are we beckoned to do anyhow?
We are asked to open the door to the Jesus . I never read that scripture
with the thought in mind that we were being asked to acknowledge that
He is God.

Can we split these hairs for the sake of clarification.

What is our responsibility ?

 

[HankD]

Upon the preaching of the Gospel, believers were baptized using the Trinitarian formula:

...in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

These believers thereby knew of and put their stamp of approval upon Jesus claim to deity.

"...before Abraham was I am".
"...if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

HankD

 

[Singer]

Hank,

I receive those truths with respect and yet if we are to fully understand
that Jesus/ God are one upon our acceptance of the Lord to make it
viable, then it would stand to reason that we've been wrongfully leaving
the Holy Spirit out of all this conversation.

Would that cause a new believers prayers to reflect:

Lord Jesus, God and Holy Spirit, I need You Three in One. Thank you for
dying on the Cross for my sins Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit. I open
the door to my life and receive you (Jesus God and Holy Spirit) as my
savior and Lord, God and Holy Spirit. Thank you for forgiving my sins
Jesus, God and Holy Spirit and for giving me eternal life.
Take control of the throne of my life and make me the type of person
you want me to be Jesus, God and Holy Spirit.

 

[DHK]

Singer,
It is not the words of the prayer that save. It is the understanding of that which is prayed from the heart that causes one to pray. Mere repetition of words doesn't save anyone. The understanding that the Lord Jesus Christ is who He claims to be (God in the flesh), and thus has the ability to save, is what saves. I cannot be saved by someone who has no ability to save me--a mere prophet, a created being, a special man, etc. The one who saved me was God incarnate, God come in the flesh: totally sinless man, and at the same time God who gave Himself on the cross for the penalty of my sins. Yes, I do have to understand salvation before I "receive Jesus into my heart." It is not just a matter of receiving Jesus, or calling on His name. It is a matte of understanding what I am doing when I say those things. If I don't understand then it is doubtful that I am saved.
DHK

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by DHK:
The understanding that the Lord Jesus Christ is who He claims to be (God in the flesh), and thus has the ability to save, is what saves.

No - it's not the understanding that saves - I believe that is heresy.

It's Jesus who saves.

I cannot be saved by someone who has no ability to save me--a mere prophet, a created being, a special man, etc.

We all agree on that - that we can't be saved by someone who has no ability to save.

But Jesus doesn't go from being 'unable to save' to being 'able' based on my understanding, as if that changes Jesus. Jesus is able to save, period.

Those who come to him and ask to be saved are saved, period - surely.

The one who saved me was God incarnate, God come in the flesh: totally sinless man, and at the same time God who gave Himself on the cross for the penalty of my sins. Yes, I do have to understand salvation before I "receive Jesus into my heart." It is not just a matter of receiving Jesus, or calling on His name. It is a matte of understanding what I am doing when I say those things. If I don't understand then it is doubtful that I am saved.
DHK

I think you are overemphasizing 'understanding' to the point where our 'understanding' saves us, not Jesus.

When we have faith that Jesus is able to save, He saves us. (And it doesn't have to be 'perfect' faith because our salvation depends on Him not us)

Ephesians 2 doesn't say we were saved by grace though understanding.

Helen/AITB

 

[Singer]

Helen:

So much common sense; surely you are wise beyond your years!!!

Maybe after each of your posts I'll just say, " Ya, dat's what I wuz gonna say."

Conjecture has led us to believe that there is a wrong way to invite
Jesus into our hearts. It has even led us to believe that table prayers
said unto God and finished with "In Jesus' name" could be misapplied.

Something like the wrong understanding going into it; making it more
probable that Santa Claus could hear our requests. Have we informed
our children how to mentally connect with the "Real Santa Claus" ?
(Beware of imposters)

How come it takes me 200 words to say what Helen can say in 20 .? .

Singer

 

[DHK]

Helen,
Did you understand who Jesus was before you called upon His name to be saved. Did you understand that He was God.

 

[Singer]

And I say "What's the Difference" ....?

Matthew 28:18
" And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given
unto me in heaven and in earth"

Either can save...
They can both save....
They both can save....
The are the same.
What am I trying to say ?

 

[Me2]

I didnt Know jesus when I was saved...

I trusted in the father that he would provide a savior for me.

later I was introduced to who the saviour was..


and even later after that did I recognize that jesus was Lord. that being said, that he was risen from the dead conquereing death and being declared Lord of All.

we are saved positionally by receiving a new spirit..and we dont realize what has happened until far after the fact..we are taught what has happened.

and might I add..We dont ask the father to receive a new spirit..God Chooses Us. He gives to us and then tells us what happened.

by the communication of our new spirit with the holy spirit. our individual carnal mind recognizes these "facts" well after they have occurred.

while many simply refuse to carnally accept what has already happened and thus stunting their continuation in their spiritual comprehension and twarts a deeper and more personal relationship with Jesus..their eventual and enevitable Lord.

Salvation is a process...Positionally at the giving of the new spirit by the Father. and experientially...as we progress through the stages of sanctification and a deeper understanding of who we are in Christ.

some believers succeed while others hold on to envy and remain their own lords sitting on their own thrones in Gods Temple...temporarily deceiving themselves.
but they are saved positionally all the same...

Me2

 

[HankD]

Dear Singer,
Yes, included in the Sovereignty of God is the understanding of the believer.

That is why Baptists insist on believers baptism of those who have understood the and accepted Gospel.

But you are correct and scriptural about the role of the understanding of the individual, for instance...

Matthew 13:
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.


HankD

 

[Singer]

(Hank)

That is why Baptists insist on believers baptism of those who have
understood the and accepted Gospel.

(Singer)

The 2x2 Sect I had left 14 years prior did not insist on the believer's
baptism; they had another name for it (Professing)....which also
provided that one would adhere to the rules and regs of the sect.

Anyhow, there was no Baptist influence on me at the time my heart
called out to God, so it was not put upon me to make any oaths of
understanding and accepting anything. My 2x2 affiliation gave me a
bible and a basic childhood understanding of a creator.

The "God Vacuum" in me just kicked on and I let myself be sucked in

Actually there's a better name for it.....something like Submitting, accepting
the Lord, coming to God, receiving salvation; whatever you want to call it.

I was a totally unchurched individual at that time who had a basic idea
that God was available, my heart was humbled through tribulations and
I sought the peace that passeth understanding. God did not let me down,
no matter what the requirements of understanding are supposed to be.

We went through a few years of church associations, but have more
recently been enjoying music ministries, fellowship and worship with
whoever God brings our way. (Or would that be Jesus doing that) ??

Singer

 

[HankD]

Singer,

Here is a Scripture (Matthew 11:27-30) which shows both the Sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man working together…

Matthew 11
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


HankD