Required Setting for Day of the Lord

[npetreley]

Ed, If the number of words you post proves your side of the discussion then you clearly win.

I get the impression that he writes that much to convince himself. He takes the plain meaning of scripture, and then runs it through a Polysyndeton filter to come up with a different order of events. No matter that it contradicts other scripture. It has to fit pre-trib or else it can't be true.

 

[Ed Edwards]

whomever: //No matter that it contradicts other scripture.
It has to fit pre-trib or else it can't be true.//

You probably wouldn't have liked those grapes anyway

Check out this page:
A TABLE OF FIGURES OF SPEECH

http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/bullinger/TableOfFiguresOfSpeech.htm

 

[npetreley]

Ed, the problem is that when Jesus says things like "immedately after the tribulation of those days..." and then describes the signs of the Day of the Lord, it does violence to the scripture to use Polysyndeton as an excuse to rearrange such a clearly spoken order of events. Jesus says in no uncertain terms:

1. Great tribulation, then immedately afterward...
2. Day of the Lord

...in that order.


​

 

[Mel Miller]

Required Setting

npetreley,

Since the final sign given by Jesus requires the armies of the Beast to be gathered to Armageddon at the end of this Age, before Jesus comes "as a thief", I opened this thread with just one pre-requisition for the Day of the Lord's wrath. Despite EE's Polysyndeton, the word "wrath" (orgay) is NOT used anywhere in the Book of Revelation regarding the great tribulation!!!!

Since 2003 my most consise and comprehensive statement has been:

"The armies of Plagues 6 and 7 cross the Euphrates River before Seals 6 and 7 open and all four of these events occur between the 6th and 7th Trumpets"!

One reason for this is that God's DAY of wrath occurs within (3 1/2) days after the tribulation "whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound". Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7.

If you agree with this assessment, it means that the 7th Plague must
remain suspended in the air until the 7th Trumpet sounds, i.e., that is long enough for 100 verses in Revelation to be fulfilled on that same 12-HOUR-DAY. Since Seals 6 & 7 are "after the great tribulation"; the 7th Trumpet waits to announce "God's wrath has come" only after about 60 of these 100 verses are fulfilled. See the "Centerpiece" on my website.

What is your reaction to just this one Key, among my Ten Keys, for the above 30-word comprehensive statement?

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :type:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed, the problem is that when Jesus says things like "immedately after the tribulation of those days..." and then describes the signs of the Day of the Lord, it does violence to the scripture to use Polysyndeton as an excuse to rearrange such a clearly spoken order of events. Jesus says in no uncertain terms:

1. Great tribulation, then immedately afterward...
2. Day of the Lord

...in that order.


​

Again, I know what you believe.
Saying it over & over like a montra does NOT make it so.
To win a debate, to even explain what you believe requires
going into detail about the subject.

Since nobody has argued against my Polysyndeton explanation, it is
proven: :saint: The End of the Church Age is marked by the
Pretribulation Rature (Matthew 24:31-44)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //Despite EE's Polysyndeton, the word "wrath" (orgay) is NOT used anywhere in the Book of Revelation regarding the great tribulation!!!!//

And this proves what? Absolutely nothing.
The Book of Revelation does not contain the word 'church' but
both of the Lord's churches are there using other words:

1. the Church Age, Christian, born again elect saints church
2. the Jewish/Israeli elect saints church (whose members get
born-again during the Tribulation period especially when
at mid-trib the Antichrist commits the Abomination of
Desolation (AOD).

I find it more reasonable to assume this:

The 7th seal is the 7 trumpets.
The 7th Trumpet is the 7 bowls.

 

[npetreley]

Again, I know what you believe.
Saying it over & over like a montra does NOT make it so.
To win a debate, to even explain what you believe requires
going into detail about the subject.

Since nobody has argued against my Polysyndeton explanation, it is
proven: :saint: The End of the Church Age is marked by the
Pretribulation Rature (Matthew 24:31-44)

You've missed the point completely. I didn't say it. Jesus did. So if I repeat what Jesus said only once, it makes it true. I shouldn't have to repeat it like a mantra, even to you.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

You can't rearrange these events. Jesus said "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and you can't undo that with Polysyndeton.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Messanic Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
-- from the wrath to come
13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come

 

[Ed Edwards]

You've missed the point completely. I didn't say it. Jesus did. So if I repeat what Jesus said only once, it makes it true. I shouldn't have to repeat it like a mantra, even to you.

You can't rearrange these events. Jesus said "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and you can't undo that with Polysyndeton.

I believe the Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that my understanding
of all the Bible is inerrant.

You believe your Bible is the
inerrant written words of God.
It is nonsense for me to
believe that your understanding
of all your Bible is inerrant.

Surely i have respect enough for my
Brother in Christ that i will allow you your
opinion. If further you believe your
opinion, i will allow that also.
But i will receive the same consideration
for my opinion/belief.
I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible
said versus your opinion of what the Bible said.
What the Bible said is true, what
the Bible means is your opinion or
is my opinion.
Don't get your opinion of what the Bible meant
get confused with what the Bible said.
Don't get your opinion of what Jesus meant
get confused with what Jesus said.

 

[npetreley]

Ed,

You can post walls of text from now until the Lord returns. You can give me your twisted interpretations of other texts from now until the Lord returns.

You'll never get around the simple fact that Jesus said...

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

From the context, it is crystal clear that "the tribulation of those days" refers to the great tribulation. From the context of dozens of other references to the same signs, it is crystal clear that the signs "the sun will be darkened, etc." refer to the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

The Bible does not contradict itself: The text above is plain and simple and needs no interpretation to understand it. JESUS SAYS: Immediately after the great tribulation, the Day of the Lord will begin. If any interpretation of any other text you offer contradicts this simple statement, then your interpretation is wrong. Period.


​

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //One reason for this is that God's DAY
of wrath occurs within (3 1/2) days after the tribulation
"whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound". Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7.//

Your statement is contradicted by scripture:

Rev 11:11 (KJV1611 Edition):
And after three dayes and an halfe the Spirit of life from God,
entred into them: and they stood vpon their feete,
and great feare fell vpon them which saw them.

BTW, Rev 10:6-7, Rev 11:6-7 do NOT mention God's Wrath.

BTW, I never did find in your writings
which 100 verses in Revelation
are fulfilled in the 12-HOUR-DAY that the scripture
fails to mention.

Rev 11:1-3 (KJV1611 Edition):
And there was giuen me a reede like vnto a rod,
and the Angel stood, saying, Rise,
and measure the Temple of God, and the Altar,
and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the Court which is without
the Temple leaue out, and measure it not:
for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
and the holy citie shall they tread vnder
foote fourty and two moneths.
Rev 11:3 And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses,
and they shall prophesie a thousand two hundred
and threescore dayes clothed in sackcloth.

What is the goal of measuring the Temple of God?
Why not measure the Court Without?
What is the start and end of the 42 months?
(Which half of Daniel's 70th year?)
What is the start and end of the 1260 days?
(Which half of Daniel's 70th year?)

 

[Ed Edwards]

What does AND mean in this verse?

2 Th 2:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
Now wee beseech you, brethren,
by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ,
and by our gathering together vnto him,

There are two main options:

1. there are two seperate sets of events
2. there are two descriptions (titles) of
the same set of events.

(There are other options, but people complain if you
get too complicated in your logic)

If you assume #2, that 'and' connects two descriptions
of the same set of events, then
you MUST believe in a post-tribulation rapture.
However, there are lots of contradictions in such a posture,
which I shall be glad to point out in the next two years,
if the Lord taries.

If you assume #3, that 'and' connects two seperate
sets of events the you MUST believe in a pretribulation
rapture. I've found no contradictions resulting from
that assumption. Therefor that assumption
(there are two seperate sets of events connected by 'and'
in 2 Thess 2:1).

BTW, a few posts ago I showed 12 differences between the
two events, nobody wants to debate the details, a sure
sign of a debate lost by the posttribs

--------------------------------------------------
Npetreley: //You'll never get around the simple fact that Jesus said...//

Matthew 24:29 (Version not specified):
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

I agree. Jesus did say that.

Npetreley: //From the context, it is crystal clear that
"the tribulation of those days" refers to the great tribulation.//

That is correct.

Npetreley: // From the context of dozens of other
references to the same signs, it is crystal clear
that the signs "the sun will be darkened, etc."
refer to the beginning of the Day of the Lord.//

That is correct.

Npetreley: //The Bible does not contradict itself:
The text above is plain and simple and needs
no interpretation to understand it.
JESUS SAYS: Immediately after the great tribulation,
the Day of the Lord will begin.//

That is correct. And I never disputed that, not in
anything that I said. However, you have made one
logical flaw. You have assumed there is
one and only one unique 'day of the Lord'.
This assumption leads to logical errors.

There is a 'day of the Lord' when Jesus comes to
defeat the Antichrist and the works of evil and
set up a physical Mellinnial Messanic Kingdom.
And Matthew 24:30 supports it.

But in the 'day of the Lord' in 2 Peter 3:10, the
universe is destroyed: the heavens and the earth.
That doesn't happen in this 'day of the Lord' that starts
'immediately after the tribulation of that day'.

Earlier I asked: What is the first verse in
Matthew 24:29-Revelation 22:21 that is NOT
covered by 'immediately after the tribulation of that day'?

A simple opinion variation results:
I believe the answer is 'Matthew 24:31'.
What do you believe?
The furtherest out answer i've gotten is 'Matthew 26:1'
Where does your answer lie?

 

[Mel Miller]

Required Setting

EE,

God's DAY of wrath occurs within (3 1/2) days after the tribulation "whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound". Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7.

God's DAY of deliverance (resurrection, rapture, rewards) occurs within (3 1/2) days after the great tribulation because "chronos-time is no longer" subject to a countdown and the mystery of God was finished" (aorist indicative) when the Two Prophets were killed.

The Two Prophets are killed whenever they should "finish" the 1260 days of chronos-time"! That day anticipates the 7th Trumpet sounding within 3 1/2 additional days when "God's WRATH has come". These Two Witnesses rise up to take part in the 100 verses being fulfilled on the DAY of God's wrath!

You never showed interest in the 100 verses to be fulfilled in six hours on the Day of the Lord!!! I have referred to this fact many times.

"The armies of Plagues 6 and 7 cross the Euphrates River before Seals 6 and 7 open and all four of these events occur between the 6th and 7th Trumpets"!

One reason for this is that God's DAY of wrath occurs within (3 1/2) days after the tribulation "whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound".

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

I. The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 17 & 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

II. The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

III. The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.

 

[Mel Miller]

Required Setting

EE,

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
I. The time line according to Matthew 24

0. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event - - - Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time - - - Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event - - - Matthew 24:29-30)
_____________________________________________________________

Your setting of Matt.24:29-31 (and Mark 13:24-27) for the Rapture shows Jesus coming and His Presence to "send the angels to gather the elect from all extremities of the heavens" at the very moment He descends with all the martyrs that "come out of the great tribulation". That setting also requires Jesus to "gather the elect (who survive) from earth to heaven"! Mark 13:27. This twofold-act of gathering the elect occurs "immediately AFTER the great tribulation". The great tribulation lasts for 1260 days until the Two Witnesses are killed and up to 3 1/2 days remain before the 7th Trumpet sounds that "God's wrath has come". Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7,18.

The "setting" for God's judgment on the church (at Daniel's Midweek) is Mystery Babylon's "rule over the kings of earth". Rev.17:18. The "setting" for God's wrath is the shedding of the martyrs' blood including the Two Witnesses plus the armies gathered to destroy the entire nation of Israel. Rev.17:6; Rev.18:24; Rev.17:14; Rev.16:14-16.

That means the 7th Plague empties and the 7th Seal opens before the 7th Trumpet sounds that "God's wrath has come".

Armies of Plagues 6 and 7 cross the Euphrates before Seals 6 and 7 open and all 4 of these events occur between the 6th and 7th Trumpets"!

One of ten reasons for this is that God's DAY of wrath occurs in (3 1/2) days after the tribulation "whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound".
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //Your setting of Matt.24:29-31 (and Mark 13:24-27) for the Rapture shows Jesus coming and His Presence to "send the angels to gather the elect from all extremities of the heavens" at the very moment He descends with all the martyrs that "come out of the great tribulation". //

No. Ed's setting does NOT DO THAT.
Mel's setting does DO THAT.
However, now that we have that straight, nobody has yet
proved what you say. A couple of your points might be nice ...

Here is a comparison between two outlooks,
I'm the pretrib, Mel Miller is the posttrib:

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Post-trib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

 

[EdSutton]

That is right.

The other serious assumption is that a Triune God is going
to have one and only one Judgement for everybody at
one time: saint & sinner alike. In fact, there are dozens of
judgements mentioned in the Bible.

----------------------------
Here is my Evangelistic JUDGEMENT writing:
----------------------------


Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
(Revelation 20:11:15)
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque
----------------------------

Somewhat like the late Milton Berle, I know a good line when I steal one.

"Amen, Bro. Ed Edwards, Preach it!"

Ed

 

[Mel Miller]

Required Setting

EE,

I wrote:
______________________________________________________________
Your setting of Matt.24:29-31 (and Mark 13:24-27) for the Rapture shows Jesus coming and His Presence to "send the angels to gather the elect from all extremities of the heavens" at the very moment He descends with all the martyrs that "come out of the great tribulation".
______________________________________________________________
Without even trying to show otherwise, you simply replied: "No. Ed's setting does NOT DO THAT".
______________________________________________________________

Jesus cannot come to "avenge the blood of the martyrs" until every one
"who must be killed has been killed". That is God's answer to their prayer in Rev.6:9-11.

Therefore, when Jesus does come, every one who has refused to worship the Beast (and who was "beheaded" for Christ) will be "gathered by the angels from ALL extremities of the heavenS" (horizontally; at right angles to the vertical plane) as soon as Jesus "gathers them (on a vertical plane) from earth to heaven".

However, you actually change the order:
____________________________________________________________
1. rapture/resurrection event - - - Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time - - - Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event - - - Matthew 24:29-30)
____________________________________________________________

EE, you admit #2 comes before #3, i.e., the tribulation precedes the 2nd advent!
But do you have the right to invert the order by putting #1 before the tribulation?

Read more carefully and you will see why verse 31 refers to the angels "gathering the elect AFTER the tribes of earth see the sign of Jesus Christ and begin to mourn "IMMEDIATELY after the great tribulation". Christ appears in verse 29-30 before the angels complete the gathering of verse 31.

Then acknowledge what a terrible thing it is to "twist" the words of Jesus to
mean exactly the opposite of what He said.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net raying:

 

[LeBuick]

Guys, I'm finally had time to look at Mt 24:29.

This day of the Lord, is this also the rapture? If so, then we, the church, will meet Christ in the air.

When do we eat at the welcome table? Rev 19. Is this not in heaven where as the reign of Christ is on earth. Correct?

There is also a reference to the saints returning to earth with Christ, where does this come to play?

Who are the ones who came through great tribulation? Rev 7:14

Lastly, 1 Cor 15:24-28 is said to show the end of the reign of Christ and a time when GOD the father comes to rule forever. Is this thought correct? How does this play time wise with the rest of this?

 

[Mel Miller]

Required Setting

LeBuick,

Before I respond, would you please list the seven things you mention in the order you think they will be fulfilled. Even if you are only guessing, I would then be better able to present my overview.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey: