Researching apostles...

[Thomas Helwys]

I did not misrepresent your post! When I read a post and reply back..I am sharing what I got out of that post. If I did not understand your post make it clear WITHOUT the name calling and ridicule.
I am not looking for allies! I am looking for truth!
I am sorry you have witnessed the wrong manifestation of tongues, but just because there are fakes...does not prove the real is not out there!

Again...I am not in a Pentecostal church! I know little about their doctrines! What I am sharing is what I see in scriptures!

You constantly take my posts and claim I said what I didn't say. That's why I said I don't know if you're being dishonest or your comprehension is lacking. It must be one or the other. What other explanation is there?

It has been proven on the mission filed that Pentecostal tongues are not real languages. And I'll bet your tongues-talk is not, either. Regardless, what good has it done you? You are just like most other charismatics: You want to disparage 1900 years of church history and faithful Christians. You claim those who don't believe like you or have what you have are deficient, are not following the scriptures, do not have or follow the "full gospel".

I don't see anything that you've been peddling that I want. I was baptized by the Holy Spirit when I believed.

 

[awaken]

You constantly take my posts and claim I said what I didn't say. That's why I said I don't know if you're being dishonest or your comprehension is lacking. It must be one or the other. What other explanation is there?

Well, I must not be comprehending what you are saying, because as I said before...I only reply back to what I am getting out of your post! Many times here I will post and my point is looked over. I do not call them being dishonest or a liar as I have been called. People can be mistaken without being dishonest! (Attacking the person does not help the debate, it takes away from it).

It has been proven on the mission filed that Pentecostal tongues are not real languages. And I'll bet your tongues-talk is not, either. Regardless, what good has it done you? You are just like most other charismatics: You want to disparage 1900 years of church history and faithful Christians. You claim those who don't believe like you or have what you have are deficient, are not following the scriptures, do not have or follow the "full gospel".

I don't see anything that you've been peddling that I want. I was baptized by the Holy Spirit when I believed.

Great! and I believe it can happen at once! But it was the Holy Spirit within and upon at the same time! I see two workings of the Holy Spirit! Some get it all at once! I did not! Why? Because I had to be taught about the work of the Holy Spirit upon. I was only taught about the Spirit within/salvation. Did I have it all at once? Maybe?? But it did not manifest until I was taught and believed it could.

 

[DHK]

Great! and I believe it can happen at once! But it was the Holy Spirit within and upon at the same time! I see two workings of the Holy Spirit! Some get it all at once! I did not! Why? Because I had to be taught about the work of the Holy Spirit upon. I was only taught about the Spirit within/salvation. Did I have it all at once? Maybe?? But it did not manifest until I was taught and believed it could.

You either had the Holy Spirit or you didn't. He does not come piece-meal. If you did not have all of him, you did not have any of him. Perhaps you were not saved.

 

[DHK]

The apostles were given to edify the saints...we still need that!
work of the ministry....we still need that!
Perfecting of the saints...we are not perfect/ mature yet!
They will be here until we ALL come in the unity of the FAITH!
Are you a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ? NO! We will not be there as an individual or a church until he returns!

Here is what the Scriptures say about the apostles.
There were the 12 Apostles. Each of those were an office, one of which had to replaced. In addition to that group was the Apostle Paul, who also was included in that group, an Apostle to the Gentiles. These were an elite group.

There were other "apostles" mentioned in the NT (lower case "s").
Study carefully. These are referred to as the apostles of the churches, specifically the first century churches.

The Bible does not teach apostolic succession. No apostle from either group was ever replaced. There is absolutely no evidence of that. Don't say that God "could." God could come zooming into your house riding on a smart bomb, but he's not going to do it. God "could." He "could" do a lot of things, but that doesn't mean he will. There is no apostolic succession. The apostles were not replaced.
The only ones who believe in apostolic succession are cults like Mormons, and other cult like religions.

Prophets were given for as long as the canon was incomplete. They supplied the revelation that we have now in the written word. Both apostles and prophets ceased at the end of the first century when both the canon of Scripture was complete and the apostles died out.

(KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Look at the CEV

(CEV) Christ chose some of us to be apostles, prophets, missionaries, pastors, and teachers,
--The word for evangelist is comparable to our modern day missionary--one who carries the gospel to other nations or even the ends of the world. That is what the apostle Paul did. He went on three missionary journeys. His foremost duty was to preach the gospel, as an evangelist.

Today it is the pastors and teachers that build up and edify the local churches, as Ephesus was.

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

1. that the saints would become mature. It comes through the teaching of the Word.
2. For the work of the ministry. Every Christian in the church should be prepared to take part in the ministry of the local church in some way.
3. for the edifying of the body of Christ. Every Christian needs to be edifying each other Christian, especially as they grow in Christ.
4. Till we all come in unity of faith. As we are taught we come into the unity of faith. We need to be united in doctrine. This ought to come very quickly under the auspices of the local church.
5. Till we come to the knowledge of the Son of God. This is not speaking of salvation, but of sanctification. It is speaking of our walk with God as we increase in the knowledge of our Savior day by day through our study of His Word.
6. unto a mature man--This comes with spiritual growth: time in the Word; time being discipled; time being taught; time being drawn close to the Lord.
7. to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ--that is, in time as we draw near to Christ we are transformed more and more into his image, even while on this earth. That is his will for us.

Be not conformed to this world.
Be conformed to the image of Christ.
Let this mind be in you which also is in Christ Jesus.

These are goals that we strive for on this earth that are made possible for us through our teachers and pastors in our local churches. It is worthwhile to note that many scholars, noting the definite article before "pastor" but not before "teacher" translate it as one office: the "pastor-teacher." Every pastor ought to be a teacher.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, I must not be comprehending what you are saying, because as I said before...I only reply back to what I am getting out of your post! Many times here I will post and my point is looked over. I do not call them being dishonest or a liar as I have been called. People can be mistaken without being dishonest! (Attacking the person does not help the debate, it takes away from it).

Great! and I believe it can happen at once! But it was the Holy Spirit within and upon at the same time! I see two workings of the Holy Spirit! Some get it all at once! I did not! Why? Because I had to be taught about the work of the Holy Spirit upon. I was only taught about the Spirit within/salvation. Did I have it all at once? Maybe?? But it did not manifest until I was taught and believed it could.

can you prove/support ther are 2 stages of the HS for us today, based upon the Epistles? As those were the letters that God grounded His theology proper in, as Acts was a hstorical book of transistion, NOT the textbook for how the HS operates among us today!

 

[awaken]

You either had the Holy Spirit or you didn't. He does not come piece-meal. If you did not have all of him, you did not have any of him. Perhaps you were not saved.

Well, I am glad you are not to judge that or I would be on my way to hell!


"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" (Luke 11:11-13)

 

[DHK]

Well, I am glad you are not to judge that or I would be on my way to hell!


"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" (Luke 11:11-13)

When you were saved: Did he give you the Spirit or did he not?

 

[awaken]

Here is what the Scriptures say about the apostles.
There were the 12 Apostles. Each of those were an office, one of which had to replaced. In addition to that group was the Apostle Paul, who also was included in that group, an Apostle to the Gentiles. These were an elite group.

There were other "apostles" mentioned in the NT (lower case "s").
Study carefully. These are referred to as the apostles of the churches, specifically the first century churches.

The Bible does not teach apostolic succession. No apostle from either group was ever replaced. There is absolutely no evidence of that. Don't say that God "could." God could come zooming into your house riding on a smart bomb, but he's not going to do it. God "could." He "could" do a lot of things, but that doesn't mean he will. There is no apostolic succession. The apostles were not replaced.
The only ones who believe in apostolic succession are cults like Mormons, and other cult like religions.

Prophets were given for as long as the canon was incomplete. They supplied the revelation that we have now in the written word. Both apostles and prophets ceased at the end of the first century when both the canon of Scripture was complete and the apostles died out.

(KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Look at the CEV

(CEV) Christ chose some of us to be apostles, prophets, missionaries, pastors, and teachers,
--The word for evangelist is comparable to our modern day missionary--one who carries the gospel to other nations or even the ends of the world. That is what the apostle Paul did. He went on three missionary journeys. His foremost duty was to preach the gospel, as an evangelist.

Today it is the pastors and teachers that build up and edify the local churches, as Ephesus was.

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

1. that the saints would become mature. It comes through the teaching of the Word.
2. For the work of the ministry. Every Christian in the church should be prepared to take part in the ministry of the local church in some way.
3. for the edifying of the body of Christ. Every Christian needs to be edifying each other Christian, especially as they grow in Christ.
4. Till we all come in unity of faith. As we are taught we come into the unity of faith. We need to be united in doctrine. This ought to come very quickly under the auspices of the local church.
5. Till we come to the knowledge of the Son of God. This is not speaking of salvation, but of sanctification. It is speaking of our walk with God as we increase in the knowledge of our Savior day by day through our study of His Word.
6. unto a mature man--This comes with spiritual growth: time in the Word; time being discipled; time being taught; time being drawn close to the Lord.
7. to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ--that is, in time as we draw near to Christ we are transformed more and more into his image, even while on this earth. That is his will for us.

Be not conformed to this world.
Be conformed to the image of Christ.
Let this mind be in you which also is in Christ Jesus.

These are goals that we strive for on this earth that are made possible for us through our teachers and pastors in our local churches. It is worthwhile to note that many scholars, noting the definite article before "pastor" but not before "teacher" translate it as one office: the "pastor-teacher." Every pastor ought to be a teacher.

NOwhere does it say they have ceased!
AGAIN...WE ARE NOT IN UNITY OF FAITH! WE ARE NOT COMPLETLY MATURE YET! WE ARE NO WHERE NEAR THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST!
No way around it! YOu can no dig your way out with your man-made theology (loop holes)!

 

[awaken]

can you prove/support ther are 2 stages of the HS for us today, based upon the Epistles? As those were the letters that God grounded His theology proper in, as Acts was a hstorical book of transistion, NOT the textbook for how the HS operates among us today!

I am discussing that on another thread! THis thread is about apostles and if they are still here today!

 

[DHK]

NOwhere does it say they have ceased!
AGAIN...WE ARE NOT IN UNITY OF FAITH! WE ARE NOT COMPLETLY MATURE YET! WE ARE NO WHERE NEAR THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST!
No way around it! YOu can no dig your way out with your man-made theology (loop holes)!

Look! I just went through the passage verse by verse, clause by clause, and in some cases word by word.
Your answer--"No way around it."
Complete denial. You have no rebuttal. You cannot answer my post. You don't even try. Why should I even listen to you when you simply assert "I am right and you are wrong." That is not debate. It is arrogance.

 

[TCassidy]

Look! I just went through the passage verse by verse, clause by clause, and in some cases word by word.
Your answer--"No way around it."
Complete denial. You have no rebuttal. You cannot answer my post. You don't even try. Why should I even listen to you when you simply assert "I am right and you are wrong." That is not debate. It is arrogance.

That is "awaken"'s SOP. Ignore any verse that shows she is wrong. Change the subject. Bring in other, unrelated, passages.

Sorry, but you are wasting your time. You will not convince her the bible is right and she is wrong.

Just look at the thread on the sign gifts. I posted where the bible clearly says that "tongues shall cease" and quoted the last verse in the chapter that clearly says "now abides faith, hope, love, these three." Not, "now abides faith, hope, love, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge, these six." Her response? Ignore it and start a new thread asking for a verse of scripture that says the gifts will cease but forbidding you to use the one that says that which she ignores.

Waste of time. Completely unteachable spirit. An evil spirit of unbelief.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

That is "awaken"'s SOP. Ignore any verse that shows she is wrong. Change the subject. Bring in other, unrelated, passages.

Sorry, but you are wasting your time. You will not convince her the bible is right and she is wrong.

Just look at the thread on the sign gifts. I posted where the bible clearly says that "tongues shall cease" and quoted the last verse in the chapter that clearly says "now abides faith, hope, love, these three." Not, "now abides faith, hope, love, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge, these six." Her response? Ignore it and start a new thread asking for a verse of scripture that says the gifts will cease but forbidding you to use the one that says that which she ignores.

Waste of time. Completely unteachable spirit. An evil spirit of unbelief.

I agree with the part I bolded. As I said, despite her assertions to the contrary, she is not looking for truth but for some way to support her unbiblical doctrines, and she ignores or denies any evidence that punches holes in them. She posts the same scriptures over and over that she claims are evidence of her beliefs and ignores the factual, context-based true teachings of those scriptures. She is a charlatan, just like the charismatic charlatans she admires and follows. I didn't think that at first, but I do now.

 

[awaken]

Look! I just went through the passage verse by verse, clause by clause, and in some cases word by word.
Your answer--"No way around it."
Complete denial. You have no rebuttal. You cannot answer my post. You don't even try. Why should I even listen to you when you simply assert "I am right and you are wrong." That is not debate. It is arrogance.

Just because I do not take your interpretation on things you get all up in knots! I have explained just as much....with scriptures and you ignore most of it!

So just accept the fact that your interpretation is not always right! I do not get upset with your when you do not accept my interpretation.

 

[awaken]

That is "awaken"'s SOP. Ignore any verse that shows she is wrong. Change the subject. Bring in other, unrelated, passages.

Sorry, but you are wasting your time. You will not convince her the bible is right and she is wrong.

Just look at the thread on the sign gifts. I posted where the bible clearly says that "tongues shall cease" and quoted the last verse in the chapter that clearly says "now abides faith, hope, love, these three." Not, "now abides faith, hope, love, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge, these six." Her response? Ignore it and start a new thread asking for a verse of scripture that says the gifts will cease but forbidding you to use the one that says that which she ignores.

Waste of time. Completely unteachable spirit. An evil spirit of unbelief.

Look who is in unbelief! I believe what the Bible says! You guys are the ones ignoring most scriptures to prove your theories!
I did not ignore your scripture...I ignored your interpretation...I like scripture to interpret scripture!
You guys get more out of ridiculing me than discussing scripture anyway!

 

[awaken]

I agree with the part I bolded. As I said, despite her assertions to the contrary, she is not looking for truth but for some way to support her unbiblical doctrines, and she ignores or denies any evidence that punches holes in them. She posts the same scriptures over and over that she claims are evidence of her beliefs and ignores the factual, context-based true teachings of those scriptures. She is a charlatan, just like the charismatic charlatans she admires and follows. I didn't think that at first, but I do now.

Another example of someone that can not actually defend their beliefs...they lower them selves to attacking the person...

Gee...can't you guys discuss scripture without getting offended when someone does not believe the way you do!

 

[DHK]

Just because I do not take your interpretation on things you get all up in knots! I have explained just as much....with scriptures and you ignore most of it!

So just accept the fact that your interpretation is not always right! I do not get upset with your when you do not accept my interpretation.

If it was not right you would be able to show me where it is not right.
You don't even attempt to do that.

 

[awaken]

If it was not right you would be able to show me where it is not right.
You don't even attempt to do that.

I do! You just ignore the post or only address the part that you want! I have given my stand with scriptures...but you will not accept them! Why? Because you have been brainwashed just as I was... to listen to the teachings of men!
I am not asking you to believe me...believe the scripture without your preconceived teachings! It is hard....but it will set you free!

My stand is firm on this...nothing new is brought up...only ridicule post! So unless someone has something NEW to debate this subject..I think it can be closed! Let the readers decide what they want to believe.. with what has been presented. The rest is up to the Holy Spirit...

 

[DHK]

I do! You just ignore the post or only address the part that you want! I have given my stand with scriptures...but you will not accept them! Why? Because you have been brainwashed just as I was... to listen to the teachings of men!
I am not asking you to believe me...believe the scripture without your preconceived teachings! It is hard....but it will set you free!

My stand is firm on this...nothing new is brought up...only ridicule post! So unless someone has something NEW to debate this subject..I think it can be closed! Let the readers decide what they want to believe.. with what has been presented. The rest is up to the Holy Spirit...

You basically gave a one-liner in response to this post:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1970660&postcount=144

But you never bothered to answer it.

 

[awaken]

You basically gave a one-liner in response to this post:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1970660&postcount=144

But you never bothered to answer it.

The answers are are through this thread! They were addressed in previous post...I just did not feel like repeating myself! I stated what I believed and why WITH SCRIPTURES! You posted what you believed with scriptures. So it is up to the readers and the Holy Spirit! There is nothing new to debate!

 

[TCassidy]

But you never bothered to answer it.

She did the same thing with "faith, hope, love, these three."

She did the same thing with "One Lord, one faith, one baptism." "Baptizing them in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

She ignores the bible and says of those who believe the bible that we are in "unbelief."

She is obviously a deceiver and a charlatan. If she is actually saved we are commanded to have no fellowship with her but rather to turn her over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.