Resurrection!/Rapture?

[prophet]

You read my post with your eyes half closed.

When I put "rapture" in quotes, I am referring to the word: "rapture".

The word: "rapture", in ENGLISH, is an abstract noun, and cannot be used to describe an event.
The educated people in the World are laughing at us...

Earnestly Contend

May I also add:

Nowhere did I make any claim that I don't believe in the Resurrection of the Dead, or the redemption of the bodies of the living and dead Saints on resurrection day.

My only objection is the misuse of the term "rapture".


US ENGLISHRAPTURE

rapture

See definition in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary

Syllabification: rap·ture

Pronunciation: /ˈrapCHər/

Definition of rapture in English:

noun

1A feeling of intense pleasure or joy:Leonora listened with rapture

MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCESIn her youth Queen Victoria listened with rapture to the impressive and glorious music of the great oratorios rendered in the Minster.
While he hasn't put a title to his collection, one cannot miss the sense of rapture and enchantment that the paintings seem to convey.
Music can impart in us a feeling of melancholy and sorrow, rapture and euphoria.


Earnestly Contend

 

[DHK]

May I also add:

Nowhere did I make any claim that I don't believe in the Resurrection of the Dead, or the redemption of the bodies of the living and dead Saints on resurrection day.

My only objection is the misuse of the term "rapture".


US ENGLISHRAPTURE

rapture

See definition in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary

Syllabification: rap·ture

Pronunciation: /ˈrapCHər/

Definition of rapture in English:

noun

1A feeling of intense pleasure or joy:Leonora listened with rapture

MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCESIn her youth Queen Victoria listened with rapture to the impressive and glorious music of the great oratorios rendered in the Minster.
While he hasn't put a title to his collection, one cannot miss the sense of rapture and enchantment that the paintings seem to convey.
Music can impart in us a feeling of melancholy and sorrow, rapture and euphoria.


Earnestly Contend

Almost all words have more than one meaning. If Sunday didn't have more than one meaning you should be worshiping the sun of that day which follows Saturday. Thus your argument holds no water.

The Merriam Webster Dictionary defines "rapture" this way:

Full Definition of rapture

1. 1: an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion
   
   
2. 2a : a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotionb : a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things
   
   
3. often capitalized : the final assumption of Christians into heaven during the end-time according to Christian theology.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rapture

Thus "rapture" is a concrete noun, and the dictionary recognizes it as an event. Perhaps a better dictionary would be in order.

 

[prophet]

Almost all words have more than one meaning. If Sunday didn't have more than one meaning you should be worshiping the sun of that day which follows Saturday. Thus your argument holds no water.

The Merriam Webster Dictionary defines "rapture" this way:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rapture

Thus "rapture" is a concrete noun, and the dictionary recognizes it as an event. Perhaps a better dictionary would be in order.

I explained all this, in my post, and you need to catch up, which is why I said that you read it with your eyes half closed:

The word "rapture" is an abstract noun.

Because of the misuse of the word, to describe an event, it has made its way into the dictionary as an event, but only describing that one event.

In other words, it should be listed as a separate entry, and capitalized, because the only reason it is in the dictionary at all, is because of its misuse by Darby and those he fooled.

Read the entry, in any dictionary (you won't find it in one prior to Darby), and it is always a reference to the made-up pre-trib event, and not a definition.

Finally, I said: find the word "rapture" in any English literature, prior to Darby, and the word will have one meaning: the one the dictionary lists.
Find the word "rapture" at all, in any English literature, and it will always be an abstract noun, unless it refers to the fairytale.

I know this is above your education level, but calling an event : "the rapture" makes Evangelical Christians look stupid.

Earnestly Contend

 

[DHK]

I explained all this, in my post, and you need to catch up, which is why I said that you read it with your eyes half closed:

The word "rapture" is an abstract noun.

Because of the misuse of the word, to describe an event, it has made its way into the dictionary as an event, but only describing that one event.

In other words, it should be listed as a separate entry, and capitalized, because the only reason it is in the dictionary at all, is because of its misuse by Darby and those he fooled.

Read the entry, in any dictionary (you won't find it in one prior to Darby), and it is always a reference to the made-up pre-trib event, and not a definition.

Finally, I said: find the word "rapture" in any English literature, prior to Darby, and the word will have one meaning: the one the dictionary lists.
Find the word "rapture" at all, in any English literature, and it will always be an abstract noun, unless it refers to the fairytale.

I know this is above your education level, but calling an event : "the rapture" makes Evangelical Christians look stupid.

Earnestly Contend

That is really a childish argument. I truly hope the English language and its dictionaries have grown since the mid-1800's. Your argument is akin to saying that the Apostles were uneducated because the word "trinity" had not come into existence yet. They were just a bunch of bumpkins. Of course the Pharisees looked upon them as ignorant fools anyway.

The word "rapture" used in its verbal form was used by Jerome in his Latin Vulgate. The Merriam Webster dictionary says that the word rapture was first used in the 1500's. It is hardly a new word. But if you insist on an older word, then the first resurrection will take place just before the tribulation. I have no problem believing that. The believers will be caught up in the air, as it says in 1Thes.4, when Jesus comes for them. This is the first resurrection. Blessed are they that take part in that first resurrection. For the dead will not rise until the thousand years are finished.

 

[DHK]

By Chuck Missler

In recent years, many opponents of the pre-tribulation rapture view have made dogmatic assertions that this view was never taught before 1820 A.D.1 There have been attempts to attribute the origin of this view to John N. Darby.

Grant Jeffrey has found an ancient citation from a sermon ascribed to Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation.2

Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century.

He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model.

This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:3

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
This text was originally a sermon called On the Last Times, the Anti-christ, and the End of the World. There are four existing Latin manuscripts (the Parisinus, the Augiensis, the Barberini, and the St. Gallen) ascribed to St. Ephraem or to St. Isidore . Some scholars believe this text was written by some unknown writer in the sixth century and was derived from the original Ephraem.4

The sermon describes the events of the last days, beginning with the rapture, the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years duration under the Antichrist's rule, followed by the Second Coming of Christ. In Ephraem's book The Book of the Cave of Treasures, written about 370 A.D., he expressed his belief that the 69th week of Daniel ended with the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah.5

This, of course, doesn't prove that the pre-tribulation view is correct; only that it was held (by some) in the early centuries and was not unique to the revival of the 1830's. It simply documents that this view was held by a remnant of the faithful from the beginning until today.

https://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/39/

It was an event, believed by some in the fourth century. Just as first century apostles did not use the word trinity to define the "Godhead," so the fourth century believers did not use the word "rapture" to define the "pre-trib resurrection of believers" or Christ coming for his bride. Nevertheless they did believe in the rapture.

 

[prophet]

That is really a childish argument. I truly hope the English language and its dictionaries have grown since the mid-1800's. Your argument is akin to saying that the Apostles were uneducated because the word "trinity" had not come into existence yet. They were just a bunch of bumpkins. Of course the Pharisees looked upon them as ignorant fools anyway.

The word "rapture" used in its verbal form was used by Jerome in his Latin Vulgate. The Merriam Webster dictionary says that the word rapture was first used in the 1500's. It is hardly a new word. But if you insist on an older word, then the first resurrection will take place just before the tribulation. I have no problem believing that. The believers will be caught up in the air, as it says in 1Thes.4, when Jesus comes for them. This is the first resurrection. Blessed are they that take part in that first resurrection. For the dead will not rise until the thousand years are finished.

Once you call it "the first resurrection", we can actually have a debate.

Rev 20:1 — Rev 20:7

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

The time frame here is self explanatory.

There will be one resurrection at the end of the Tribulation (prior to God's Wrath being poured out) which includes those beheaded during the Tribulation of the Saints.
There will be another after the Millennium.

2 resurrections.



Earnestly Contend

 

[DHK]

Once you call it "the first resurrection", we can actually have a debate.

Rev 20:1 — Rev 20:7

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

The time frame here is self explanatory.

There will be one resurrection at the end of the Tribulation (prior to God's Wrath being poured out) which includes those beheaded during the Tribulation of the Saints.
There will be another after the Millennium.

2 resurrections.

What many fail to understand is that the first resurrection takes place in different phases. It is not a one-time event. Let me quote Walvoord on this:

20:5 The first part of verse 5 must be understood as a parenthesis. The rest of the dead refers to unbelievers of all ages who will be raised at the end of the Millennium to stand before the Judgment of the Great White Throne.
The statement This is the first resurrection refers back to verse 4. The first resurrection is not a single event. It describes the resurrection of the righteous at various times. It includes the resurrection of Christ (1Co_15:23), the resurrection of those who are Christ's when He raptures the church (1Th_4:13-18), the resurrection of the two witnesses whose bodies will lie in the streets (Rev_11:11), and the resurrection of tribulation saints who are described here (see also Dan_12:2 a). In other words, the first resurrection includes the resurrection of Christ and of all true believers, though they are raised at different times. It occurs in several stages.

It even includes the resurrection of Christ as the Bible declares Christ to be the firstfruits of the resurrection.
Then a thousand years after the last of those to rise will be the second resurrection, the resurrection of the dead or the unsaved. They shall be cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death.

 

[Jerome]

Universal Etymological English Dictionary [mid 1700s]

RAPTURE (rapture, L.) a taking or snatching away, as the rapture of St. Paul into the third Heaven ; also a transport of mind caused by excessive joy.

 

[prophet]

What many fail to understand is that the first resurrection takes place in different phases. It is not a one-time event. Let me quote Walvoord on this:

20:5 The first part of verse 5 must be understood as a parenthesis. The rest of the dead refers to unbelievers of all ages who will be raised at the end of the Millennium to stand before the Judgment of the Great White Throne.
The statement This is the first resurrection refers back to verse 4. The first resurrection is not a single event. It describes the resurrection of the righteous at various times. It includes the resurrection of Christ (1Co_15:23), the resurrection of those who are Christ's when He raptures the church (1Th_4:13-18), the resurrection of the two witnesses whose bodies will lie in the streets (Rev_11:11), and the resurrection of tribulation saints who are described here (see also Dan_12:2 a). In other words, the first resurrection includes the resurrection of Christ and of all true believers, though they are raised at different times. It occurs in several stages.

It even includes the resurrection of Christ as the Bible declares Christ to be the firstfruits of the resurrection.
Then a thousand years after the last of those to rise will be the second resurrection, the resurrection of the dead or the unsaved. They shall be cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death.

So, Jesus will come in the clouds 3 more times?

Earnestly Contend

 

[DHK]

So, Jesus will come in the clouds 3 more times?

Earnestly Contend

No, that is not what I said. You asked about the "resurrection," remember?

 

[prophet]

No, that is not what I said. You asked about the "resurrection," remember?

And you said there were several.

Am I missing something here?

Earnestly Contend

 

[DHK]

And you said there were several.

Am I missing something here?

Earnestly Contend

When the resurrection takes place we shall arise, like Jesus arose.
But there is the promise that Jesus will come again, as he came the first time. His coming will be in two phases even as the first resurrection was in several stages.

 

[heisrisen]

Both. The dead in Christ will rise first (resurrection), then we which are alive and remain will be caught up (which is harpazo = rapture in Latin).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

When the resurrection takes place we shall arise, like Jesus arose.
But there is the promise that Jesus will come again, as he came the first time. His coming will be in two phases even as the first resurrection was in several stages.

I don't think so. For the return of our Lord, Consider:

"For as the lightening comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be" (Matt. 24:27).

'This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven' (Acts 1:11).

'Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him' (Rev. 1:7).
Only one coming, and very visible.
For the resurrection and 'Rapture':

'For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet with the Lord in the air' (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

These last verses are the only possible biblical reference to a 'rapture' and the sequence seems to be that of a Jewish wedding (cf. Matt. 25:1ff). The friends of the bride would wait for the groom outside the bride's home, and when the groom appeared they would go out to meet him and his party, and then they would all return to the bride's house as one party. So we Christians are waiting for Christ to come and claim His bride, the Church. When He appears, the Christian dead will rise and we shall all rise to meet Him in the air and then return with Him to the earth for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Isaiah 25:6-9).

To be sure there are a few other things to be fitted in: the resurrection and judgement of the wicked, the passing away of the old world and the coming of the new heavens and new earth, but I'm sure the Lord has it all in hand.

 

[DHK]

I don't think so. For the return of our Lord, Consider:

"For as the lightening comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be" (Matt. 24:27).

'This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven' (Acts 1:11).

'Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him' (Rev. 1:7).
Only one coming, and very visible.
For the resurrection and 'Rapture':

'For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet with the Lord in the air' (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

These last verses are the only possible biblical reference to a 'rapture' and the sequence seems to be that of a Jewish wedding (cf. Matt. 25:1ff). The friends of the bride would wait for the groom outside the bride's home, and when the groom appeared they would go out to meet him and his party, and then they would all return to the bride's house as one party. So we Christians are waiting for Christ to come and claim His bride, the Church. When He appears, the Christian dead will rise and we shall all rise to meet Him in the air and then return with Him to the earth for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Isaiah 25:6-9).

To be sure there are a few other things to be fitted in: the resurrection and judgement of the wicked, the passing away of the old world and the coming of the new heavens and new earth, but I'm sure the Lord has it all in hand.

I am sure that our wedding and Christ coming for his bride won't be patterned exactly after a Jewish wedding.
Jesus is the bridegroom. NT believers make up the bride. John the Baptist was declared to be a friend of the bride, and thus OT believers would be in that category also.
Jesus is coming for his bride. How? In the same way that he left (Acts ch. 1). That will happen before the Tribulation. He will come to the clouds and we will meet him there. We are not appointed to wrath.

At the end of seven years Christ will come in the power and glory of His Father with the heavenly angels. All Israel at that time shall be saved and shortly after the Millennial Kingdom will become.
His coming will be vastly different than that described in 1Thes.4:17ff and in Acts one.

According to 2Thes.1 he will come to take vengeance on all those who obey not our gospel.
The rapture is for the believers; the second coming has an emphasis of wrath upon the unbelievers while at the same time saving the Jews from the wrath of the same unbelievers. They are two separate comings both with a very different purpose.

 

[Darrell C]

And you said there were several.

Am I missing something here?

That is very possible, as many fail to consider that there are three resurrections presented in Revelation (excluding individual resurrections such as the view that Antichrist is resurrected).

The first would be the Two Witnesses:


Revelation 11:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


Here we see a similar event to the Rapture of the Church, wherein these two men die, are resurrected unto life, and caught up/away to Heaven. We could argue that they are only bodily resurrected rather than glorified, but we would have to suppose they are taken into the heaven rather than Heaven, which is unlikely, thus the conclusion that they are taken into Heaven itself demands glorification.

This is the same thing that happens in the Rapture.


The second is of course the First Resurrection, mistakenly believed to be the first resurrection in sequence by many who fail to understand that protos (the word translated "first") also refers to rank. There are only two types of resurrections in terms of type, according to Christ:


John 5:29King

James Version (KJV)

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Our proof-text for the second resurrection listed in Revelation is...


Revelation 20:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


That there is a resurrection here is not in question, the text states it specifically. Those dead which did not live again give us our third resurrection, and we are told they do not live again until the thousand years are finished:


Revelation 20:12-13

King James Version (KJV)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


While there is no explicit statement of resurrection, most agree that the dead are resurrected at this time, in fact experiencing a similar change in state to glorification, being given bodies suitable to the everlasting damnation they have before them.

Now we ask one question: do we see the Rapture in any of these Resurrections?

The answer is no, as in the resurrection of the Two Witnesses there are only two men resurrected and caught up; in the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs (a suitable designation seeing they did not receive the Mark of the Beast) only those who died in the Tribulation are found; and in the general Resurrection of the dead which takes place at the passing away of the world...we see those raised are dead. Now consider that if there is only one resurrection and it is the one before the Great White Throne, then we can exclude the Two Witnesses and the Tribulation Martyrs, which effectively cancels out an argument that there is only one resurrection. We can also dispel the notion that the Rapture is one of these resurrections because if it were...there would be no physical descendants to repopulate the earth after the Tribulation, from which those who rebel against God come from:


Revelation 20:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


The only logical place to see the Rapture spoken of by Paul is before the Tribulation begins.

Earnestly Contend

God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Jesus is coming for his bride. How? In the same way that he left (Acts ch. 1). That will happen before the Tribulation. He will come to the clouds and we will meet him there. We are not appointed to wrath.

We are not indeed appointed for wrath, but we are appointed for tribulation.
John 16:33; Acts 14:22; Romans 5:3; 12:12; 2 Corinthians 7:4; Ephesians 3:13; 1 Thes. 3:4; 2 Thes. 1:4-6; Revelation 2:10, and IMO 7:14.

 

[Darrell C]

We are not indeed appointed for wrath, but we are appointed for tribulation.
John 16:33; Acts 14:22; Romans 5:3; 12:12; 2 Corinthians 7:4; Ephesians 3:13; 1 Thes. 3:4; 2 Thes. 1:4-6; Revelation 2:10, and IMO 7:14.

Are you saying that all of these passages are speaking about the period of Tribulation known as the Tribulation?

If believers are going to go through the Tribulation then it is equally true that we are appointed...unto wrath.

God bless.

 

[Greektim]

Don't question dispensationalism... Tim Lahaye said it. I believe it.

 

[Darrell C]

Don't question dispensationalism... Tim Lahaye said it. I believe it.

All Systems have error. It is when we refuse to acknowledge that truth that we allow ourselves to be indoctrinated into views which are not Biblical.

If you would care to list why you reject any particular view found with Dispensationalism...I'd be happy to look at it with you.

God bless.