Thank you. I have been trying to remember exactly what it was for some time now.
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Resurrection!/Rapture?
- Thread starter tyndale1946
- Start date
Well, I am derailing the thread. Sorry Brothers. We'll just disagree and leave it be...for now. 
That is your prerogative. However, where else in the Bible does 1,000 occur and is it taken literally there?
Deut. 32:30. Literal? If there were 1,001, could the man not chase them? And how come two can chase 10,000? The ratio seems to be a bit suspect.
Job 9:3. Could someone answer him once in 1,001 times?
Psalm 50:10. The first part of the verse qualifies the second. 1,000 = all that there are. Unless you think that there are some hills where the cattle are not the Lord's.
Psalm 105:8. If there were more than 1,000 generations would God's word not stand?
Eccl. 6:6. What if he lived 1,001 years twice?
Eccl. 7:28. Exact ratio of 1 upright man to 1,000?
2 Peter 3:28. Does not God sit outside time? Are 1,001 years more than a day to Him?
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Again, it is not too difficult to distinguish a distinct period which is spoken of by Christ Himself, and to see that He is not speaking of the same thing. He said while we are in this world we would have tribulation, however, He is distinct is specifying a period that is not the general history in which that tribulation comes:
Matthew 24:15-21
King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Can you honestly say you do not see Christ speaking about a specific time when we see that specific events are to be recognized?
How about here...
Revelation 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
...?
Part of our problem (more yours, actually
This is true. It is a problem I am happy to have.
As mentioned before, you say "It is symbolic," however, the symbolism represents realities. While Satan may not be a serpent or dragon, there is a Satan, Scripture attests to that to the point where it cannot be denied. While both the persecution of the saints and the period of time described in Revelation both are called tribulation, we only see certain events within that seven year period, rather than a historical stage where the Beast and False Prophet are found in various manifestations.
And nowhere in the events described in Revelation, nor in Historical accounts, do we we see the Rapture described by Paul. The closest thing to that in Revelation is the resurrection and rapture of the Two Witnesses.
God bless.
Seventy "sevens," and yes, that is what the text states. of those Seventy 69 have been accomplished, we still await the Seventieth Seven.
And yes, it states one thousand years, and there is no reason to think it means something else.
"Hour" can refer to a specific period or event:
Revelation 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
There is still the reality behind the descriptive/figurative language...Satan, also described as a roaring lion walking about seeking whom he may devour. And just as we do not negate the reality found within the description in regards to Satan, even so we do not negate the realities found in Revelation 20.
Satan will be bound for a thousand years, the Tribulation Martyrs will reign with Christ for one thousand years, the rest of the dead will wait one thousand years to live again, and at the end of the thousand years Satan will be released to stir up the unbelieving population...
...which did not enter into the Kingdom at the end of the Tribulation, for all unbelievers will perish and nothing that offends will enter into that Kingdom.
And how many Churches were there literally? I mean those in view who are addressed by Christ?
Seven.
Let me ask you this: was the Tabernacle on earth real? It too was just a symbol...
Hebrews 9:8-10
King James Version (KJV)
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Do we negate the reality because of the figure/parable/symbol/metaphor?
Seeing that this figure is repeated numerous times it is fairly safe to say it means a thousand years. There is nothing in the text which gives us reason to assume allegory or figurative speech. Most of the text is straight-forward, in this chapter as well as the remainder of the Book.
God bless.
Daniel was made to understand the "Seventy Weeks" as they were meant to be understood. This began with the period of captivity they were currently in:
Daniel 9
King James Version (KJV)
1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
The Lord's declaration of seventy "sevens" would have been understood in that context, I would think. He could have used years (490), but, I think it is due to the division of the periods which are distinct:
Daniel 9:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
There would be a specific period of seven sevens, then a period of 62 sevens, which leaves the final seven. That final seven is highly debated among believers as to whether it has been fulfilled or not, but the point remains that these periods are specific, which blends into New Testament Prophecy where we see a period described by Christ and John.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Christ teaches about this same period in Matthew 24, and here we see the final Seven described. One Week equals seven years, and it seems that in the middle of that seven year period Antichrist will cause sacrifice and the oblation to cease, which suggests the Covenant he "confirms" is the Covenant of Law.
So to sum up, we see the distinction between seventy years and seventy sevens in the text, and probably understanding of the text came later in full, when they were able to see the period of seven sevens fulfilled and we can see the period of the 62 sevens fulfilled (also highly debated).
God bless.
Yes indeed. I compare Scripture with Scripture and let Luke help me. Luke 21:20. 'When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies......' He is speaking at this point of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. What you need to remember is that the disciples asked Our Lord 3 questions (Matt. 24:3). He answers all three of them. The trick is working out which one He's answering.
All the people in the church in Philadelphia are long since dead. Whatever time of testing the Holy Spirit is speaking of, it isn't one in the future.
What seven year period? Where is a seven year tribulation described in Revelation? And are the 10 horns and 7 heads real or symbolic? And why does the beast have the same number of heads and horns? Is this real or symbolic? Should I be keeping a look out for this literal beast popping its heads out of the sea?
We see it exactly in Rev. 11 and the two witnesses, but you have not correctly identified them. Try looking at Deut. 19:15 and Matt. 24:14 to help you.
You too.
Here is an article that I wrote a while ago on the Two Witnesses.
https://marprelate.wordpress.com/20...-7-the-temple-measured-and-the-two-witnesses/
https://marprelate.wordpress.com/20...-7-the-temple-measured-and-the-two-witnesses/
While I might agree we could see an application to events in the first century, we still see that the events of Revelation have not yet been fulfilled. Primarily Christ's Return. Propecy can be seen to have multiple applications, such as prophecy concerning the Antichrist. We see a fulfillment in Antiochus Epiphanes, yet Christ still taught that he was yet to come. We have not seen Matthew 25 fulfilled, for we have not seen Angels gather the nations, nor Christ separate them, resulting in a Theocracy here on earth.
While they may be dead, that doesn't mean that period has been fulfilled ultimately. The events of the first century did not come upon the whole world, but was central to that area. Another example of the continuing application is seen here:
Revelation 3:20-22
King James Version (KJV)
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Would we suppose that this has only a first century application?
We can conclude seven years simply because that final Week has not yet been fulfilled. We see the Lord distinctly refer to the Abomination of Desolation which takes place in the middle of the Week which is followed by three and a half years. The events of Revelation cannot place the Abomination of Desolation at the beginning, simply because the Beast has no power over the Two Witnesses for forty two months, or...3 1/2 years.
We cannot make his time of empowerment and their concurrent, which provides the seven years which is consistent with Old Testament Prophecy.
We are told what they are, and yes, they are symbolic...but speak of realities:
Revelation 17:9-12
King James Version (KJV)
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
The seven "mountains" are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece (the five at the time of the writing that had fallen), Rome (the "one that is" at the time of the writing), and the final empire that will be in place during the Tribulation.
So yes, the ten heads are real.
The Ten Kings belong to that final empire, and are also real.
Kind of hard to have something symbolic physically die, be resurrected, and then caught up to Heaven.
These are two literal men.
Thanks!
God bless.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
That works well if you understand how to interpret this genre of literature. In other words, it makes sense that a highly symbolic book would use a figure like 1,000 years as a symbol of a long period of time. So if we understand the role of the genre of apocalypse, then we understand that they are not trying to unfold the events as if it were future history. They were making broad sweeping claims about issues they were dealing with in their day with the vehicle of the symbolic cataclysmic events. If you don't read Revelation that way, then the book has little comfort to offer the saints these past 1,900 years (assuming the futurist view and that we are the final generation).
In a "highly symbolic book" there is much that is not symbolic, especially numbers.
Three and a half, 1,240 days, 42 months, a time, times and half a time, all refer to the same length of time: three and a half years or half of the seven year length of the Tribulation Period, the Seventh Week of Daniel.
The seven seals, the seven trumpets, the seven vials.
The twelve apostles, the 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe, 12 tribes mentioned.
Revelation 21:13 On the east were three gates; and on the north three gates; and on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb.
How long will numbers be allegorized? How many of them will mean something else other than what they are supposed to mean. Are there two witnesses in Revelation 11? How do we know according to your method of interpretation. Numbers do have meanings, even in a symbolic book. If words don't have meanings then how would we communicate?
Do not think that I am a Preterist. Insofar as I'm anything I'm Amil. Therefore I see the events depicted in Revelation as continuing from our Lord's ascension until His return. I also see multiple fulfilments of prophecy, and I do see a brief time of increased tribulation ('Satan's little season') just before the Lord Jesus returns (2 Thes. 2:8; Rev. 11:7ff and maybe 13:6ff), but it is clear to me that the Church will go through it).
Not at all. I would see it as having application all the way through the Christian era. With regard to Rev. 3:10, it was written to a 1st Century church and must therefore have relevance to that church and that time, so it simply will not do to push it forward 2,000+ years. However, it also speaks to all churches at all times. The verse also needs to be interpreted in the light of our Lord's prayer in John 17:15. "I do not pray that you should take them out of the world, but that you should keep them from the evil one.' For that reason alone Rev. 3:10 cannot apply to the 'rapture.'
I disagree with the Dispensationalist interpretation of Daniel 9 as well as of Rev. 11 To give an interpretation of Daniel 9 would take more time than I have. I have given a link to an article on Rev. 11.
Of course they do. The trick is to understand the realities of which they speak. Almost everything in Revelation can be traced back to the O.T., so that helps us understand.
The first readers of Revelation would have known exactly what the 'seven mountains' represented because Rome was famously built on seven hills. Ten is the number of fullness, but in Revelation it also represents Satan, his servants and their activity (2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3, 7, 12, 16). These ten kings therefore represent anti-Christian rulers all through the Christian era.
Not at all. Christian witness lies dead; its enemies rejoice over it and are then confounded by the Return of our Lord when His servants rise to meet Him in the air (1 Thes. 4:16-17).
I very much doubt it, but all will be revealed at the Last Day.
But Revelation has the Lord returning a thousand years before Satan is loosed, lol.
And not sure why you think I called you a Preterist. Not in the habit of insulting people without cause (just kidding, those who are Preterist).
So how would you explain the "rest of the dead" not living again until the thousand years ends? Christ returns in Revelation 19 and we see two distinct events where the enemies of God are destroyed:
Revelation 19:19-21
King James Version (KJV)
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 20:7-10
King James Version (KJV)
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
In the first event only the Beast and False Prophet are cast into Hell, and Satan is bound. In the second, Satan is cast into Hell. In both there is a destruction of the enemies of God who have massed together against Him. Do you really see this as the same event?
We cannot push "I stand at the door and knock" into the 21st century?
And I never said this passage refers to the Rapture, it does not. It is a call to salvation.
As far as John 17:15, again in view is not the Rapture, but simply a removal from the world. He is basically saying that they stay in the world and be kept from the evil one. His intention for them is seen in Acts.
So just deal with the points made. Again, we cannot have the empowerment of the Two Witnesses and the Antichrist concurrent. It simply makes no sense. Would he not destroy the Two Witnesses in the first half?
Revelation 11
King James Version (KJV)
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 13:4-5, 7
King James Version (KJV)
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Now think about it, Martin, the Abomination which makes desolate is the point in which the Lord tells men to flee. There is forty two months after this event. This event does not take place while the Two Witnesses are empowered, nor can it. It simply makes more sense to see the deaths of the Two Witnesses coinciding with the Abomination of Desolation. 3 1/2 years in which they minister, 3 1/2 years when Antichrist makes war with the saints.
Continued...
I actually scanned through it. Well written and I am sure well received by your Reformed brethren, but there are a few things that bring about conflict. I will be able to touch on a few of those, I think, in the remaining statements you make here.
In part I agree, because Prophecy is consistent throughout Scripture, though Revelation is progressive. For instance, the Old Testament Prophecy did not allow for knowledge of Rome.
So you feel that there were five fallen hills in Rome, one which was currently standing, and one of the hills hadn't gotten there yet?
But that number changes:
Daniel 7:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
With the rise of Antichrist the number will be eight.
The bottom line is that the Prophecy of Daniel cannot be fulfilled in that day because we have it reiterated in the first century.
Secondly...
Revelation 17:12
King James Version (KJV)
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
...at the time of the writing of Revelation, these kings had not yet appeared, and their kingdom is with the Beast. Revelation does not provide a context of plurality concerning the Antichrist, and the text makes it clear that these ten kings are contemporary to each other.
Not spread across history. We would then have to have an Antichrist involved with each of those kings. The text speaks of a singular Beast, and a singular point in history, which is still yet future.
Pardon? Speak for yourself, lol.
Nevertheless, to take this line of reasoning we would also have to say that Christian witness has also bee resurrected...yet caught up to Heaven.
Does that really make sense?
So explain the Tribulation Martyrs:
Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
It is clear that Christian Testimony is alive and well, though persecuted...in the Tribulation.
I very much doubt it, but all will be revealed at the Last Day.Darrell C said:
This is true. Though I think it has been revealed already.
God bless.
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I really don't think so. I assume that you are au fait with the Amil understanding of Progressive Parallelism. If not, I will take time to explain.
Those who die in Christ go at once to be with Him. Those dying outside of Christ remain separated from Him until His return when they rise for judgement (Dan. 12:2; John 5:28-29).
Yes. It is the same event seen from a different perspective.
Please go back and read my post again. You are confusing Rev. 3:10 and Rev. 3:20.
What is the 'rapture' but a removal of believers from the world?
That is correct, but the same is also His intention for the Philadelphian Christians in Rev. 3:10.
You underestimate the power of God. God preserves the witness of God's people until it is complete (Matt. 24:14).
We are interpreting these events in totally different ways, and it seems difficult for us to make progress in our discussion. The Two Witnesses represent Christian evangelism (cf. Luke 10:1 etc.) and they witness from the ascension of our Lord until immediately before His return. During that time nothing can stop the witness (verse 5). Then comes the short time when Satan is released (Rev. 20:7-8) and evangelism, comes to pretty much a dead stop (cf. John 9:4) until Christ's return.
So in Rev. 13, we see the beast from the sea (who represents anti-Christian political power) operating for 42 months (time, times and half a time or 1260 days) which represents the same time as the witnesses are preaching. After the 42 months (v.6), the beast's power increases and he is able to overcome the saints and to stop evangelism for that short period before our Lord comes again.
The Premil system of interpretation has nothing to say to the first readers of Revelation. It is all stuck thousands of years into the future. The Amil interpretation is correct because it has relevance for all Christians at all times. Despite all the efforts of Satan and his minions, the word of God will continue to spread (as we see it doing today in China, Africa, South America etc.) until just before Christ's coming. All God's people will be gathered in.
John speaks of many antichrists already in the world in his day (1 John 2:18). The Beast exists all the way through the Christian era. I see no reason why these kings should have to be coming all together. Again, what use would it have been to 1st Century Christians right up to today if these ten kings aren't coming until the end?
It also leads to confusion. In the 1990s, when there were ten countries in the European Union, all the Dispensationalists in Britain were terribly excited because they thought the Time had come. When more countries joined the E.U. it made Christians look stupid.
The tribulation martyrs are all the way through the Christian era. The dragon is wroth with the woman all that time, and there have been, are and will be martyrs until our Lord returns (Rev. 6:9-12). I hardly think that you will deny that.
Although I disagree fundamentally with Dispensationalism, I do want to say that I regard everyone who is looking forward to the physical return o the Lord Jesus in glory as my brother in Christ. I appreciate the desire of Dispensationalists to be biblical in their approach, even though I don't believe they have quite achieved their desire. I also thank you for your courtesy in our discussions.
God bless.
I'm having a few issues with my computer this morning, seems like every other day it's a different computer, so I will have to come back to that last part of the post. Just recently installed Windows 10, and now I am regretting that.
Yes, though I am not sure I have heard it called that before (looked it up to save you some time).
The problem I would find with that view is that we cannot find a parallel between them that (for me) would incline one to view these events as concurrent rather than a straightforward timeline. For example, we see differing events and differences between the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials. If it were parallel events, then, like all prophecy, we see a more consistent transpiring of events.
But back to the thousand years: the Tribulation is a seven year period which, at the end, has this thousand year period. Christ's Return is clearly prior to this period, which does not allow for the departure of the Church, or the immediate creation of the new heavens and earth.
But I think we might do better to examine the Two Witnesses. I am familiar with views that make the thousand years something other than a thousand years, though if you would like to comment on that it would be appreciated.
In view are the specific events when the enemies of God are destroyed. We find two distinct events separated by a thousand years:
Revelation 19:17-21
King James Version (KJV)
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
In this event the carcasses of the dead are devoured, just as we see in Ezekiel 39. This, as in Ezekiel, suggest that the Earth remains intact and that there is a time frame following which is physical (as opposed to their destruction and the immediacy of the new heavens and earth).
Ezekiel gives two periods of time, seven years, as well as seven months. This would fit in a view that see a physical period after this destruction of God's enemies.
The second event...
Revelation 20:7-11
King James Version (KJV)
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
...has them being destroyed, the difference being, rather than Satan being bound for a thousand years, he is cast into Hell, from which there is no loosing. Also, at this time, we see the passing away of the earth and the heaven, which we do not see in the first event.
So we cannot draw a parallel, though we have similarities.
Continued...
Yes, though I am not sure I have heard it called that before (looked it up to save you some time).
The problem I would find with that view is that we cannot find a parallel between them that (for me) would incline one to view these events as concurrent rather than a straightforward timeline. For example, we see differing events and differences between the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials. If it were parallel events, then, like all prophecy, we see a more consistent transpiring of events.
But back to the thousand years: the Tribulation is a seven year period which, at the end, has this thousand year period. Christ's Return is clearly prior to this period, which does not allow for the departure of the Church, or the immediate creation of the new heavens and earth.
But I think we might do better to examine the Two Witnesses. I am familiar with views that make the thousand years something other than a thousand years, though if you would like to comment on that it would be appreciated.
In view are the specific events when the enemies of God are destroyed. We find two distinct events separated by a thousand years:
Revelation 19:17-21
King James Version (KJV)
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
In this event the carcasses of the dead are devoured, just as we see in Ezekiel 39. This, as in Ezekiel, suggest that the Earth remains intact and that there is a time frame following which is physical (as opposed to their destruction and the immediacy of the new heavens and earth).
Ezekiel gives two periods of time, seven years, as well as seven months. This would fit in a view that see a physical period after this destruction of God's enemies.
The second event...
Revelation 20:7-11
King James Version (KJV)
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
...has them being destroyed, the difference being, rather than Satan being bound for a thousand years, he is cast into Hell, from which there is no loosing. Also, at this time, we see the passing away of the earth and the heaven, which we do not see in the first event.
So we cannot draw a parallel, though we have similarities.
Continued...
There are simply too great of differences to make these the same event, in my view. And when we look at the teaching of the Lord in regards to His Return, it further makes it more difficult to see one Return at which time, demanded by this view, we would have to see the end of this current Universe in accordance to that teaching in Revelation.
The Rapture is distinct from any other event of resurrection or being caught up. Here, we have the opposite concept presented in that the Lord desires the disciples to stay, which removes the possibility that the same concept is in view.
Again, I have to insist that the Two Witnesses are literal men, based on a number of reasons.
As mentioned in the last post, Christian Evangelism is alive and well throughout the Tribulation, and is the source of death for many. Here you have Evangelism up to the end of the Tribulation, but we see the Two Witnesses perish in the middle of the Tribulation, which would demand an absence for the forty two moths Antichrist is empowered. I know many view the events of Revelation as being 3 1/2 years, but it is impossible to make their ministry and Antichrist's concurrent. If we look at the Lord's teaching in Matthew 24, we see a certain landmark which is that Abomination which makes desolate. From this point there is a remaining 1260 days (3 1/2 years), not to mention an additional 75 days after the Tribulation ends. This is the "short time" Satan has when he is released, which, if you mark the Lord's Return at the end of the 1260 days, as seen in Revelation 19, and see Satan bound at that time, you begin the thousand years at the end of the following 75 days, which allows for that brief period he has at the end of the thousand years. I would just ask how we could place a time when Christian Evangelism ceases when the Lord is at the end of the Tribulation (which is where this time would fall) there judging the nations?
Another issue that arises would be that we see the Two Witnesses caught up after the 3 1/2 days. Rather than presenting a picture of "Christian Evangelism" resuming. The Two Witnesses are removed from the picture altogether at their deaths.
Okay, this think is acting up, so going to have to close this down and see what happens. Be back in a bit, Lord willing.
God bless.
But there is no "short period" if keep a couple things consistent in a view that both symbolizes and maintains a 3 1/2 year period. Basically, it imposes more time to that which is given in Scripture: both the Two Witnesses and the Antichrist are given forty two months. Their deaths occur at the end of their ministry, which would put that "short period into the 75 days better understood (I think) to be the time after Christ's Return at which time is the Sheep and Goat Judgment. So this would place your short period in which there is no Christian Witness...when Chris is here.
And we do not see a progression of power for the beast, but simply that he is empowered:
Revelation 13
King James Version (KJV)
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
He was empowered to overcome the saints.
Again, we see a seven year period still waiting to be fulfilled based on Daniel. The 69 Weeks end with the cutting off of Messiah. Daniel gives 42 months after the Abomination of Desolation, at which time Christ said..."Flee to the mountains."
They would be fleeing at Christ's Return, which would imply Antichrist was still empowered, which conflicts with all other relevant passages concerning Christ's Return. It is unthinkable to imagine no Christian witness and believers fleeing after Christ has returned.
Continued...