Greektim
Well-Known Member
How about all of Premillism, not just the dispie brand???
I used to be an ardent dispie. But I left it behind.
[see what I did there?]
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Resurrection!/Rapture?
- Thread starter tyndale1946
- Start date
I used to be an ardent dispie. But I left it behind.
[see what I did there?]
And the primary problem you are going to have in denying Christ's Return prior to the Millennial Kingdom is that you cannot remove that thousand year period from Revelation 20.
But for the sake of discussion here is a passage for you to comment on:
Zechariah 13King James Version (KJV)
13 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
When were these conditions fulfilled in history?
God bless.
Given that the N.T. was written all in capital letters, how do you distinguish between tribulation and Tribulation? The passages all speak of tribulation (Gk. thlipsis).
I am aware that Dispensationalists look especially at Matthew 24:21 for their 'Great Tribulation,' but it is by no means clear (a) that the text is not referring to AD 70 and (b) that if it isn't that, believers do not go through it.
Why do you think that? Romans 8:35-37. 'Who shall separate us from the love of God? Shall tribulation or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, "For you sake we are killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep to be slaughtered.' Does that mean that we are 'appointed to wrath'? By no means! 'Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.'
And God bless you too.
Given that the N.T. was written all in capital letters, how do you distinguish between tribulation and Tribulation? The passages all speak of tribulation (Gk. thlipsis).
I am aware that Dispensationalists look especially at Matthew 24:21 for their 'Great Tribulation,' but it is by no means clear (a) that the text is not referring to AD 70 and (b) that if it isn't that, believers do not go through it.
Why do you think that? Romans 8:35-37. 'Who shall separate us from the love of God? Shall tribulation or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, "For you sake we are killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep to be slaughtered.' Does that mean that we are 'appointed to wrath'? By no means! 'Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.'
And God bless you too.
It is fairly easy to distinguish a period of time such as described in Revelation (Tribulation) from general history (tribulation). While tribulation is constant, we do not ascribe the period/s of time in Revelation as general history, but a well developed timeline of events in a specific place in time.
God bless.
Rev. 1:9. I, John, your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ.....' I'm not sure that I can find the word thlipsis used anywhere in Revelation the way that you are interpreting it.
Part of our problem (more yours, actually
) is that we do not interpret the Book of Revelation the same way.
People interpret it(Revelation) literally when it's chocked full of allegorical language. But, by golly, 1,000 years means 1,000 years, but 70 weeks means 70 weeks....hold the onions...490 years, an hour(see John 5:25) means an hour...pump the brakes...a short time, great red dragon means great red dragon...no wait...picture of satan, seven golden lampstands are seven golden lampstands...hold the phones...seven churches of Asia Minor(see Turkey), but 1,000 years means a literal 1,000 years.Rev. 1:9. I, John, your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ.....' I'm not sure that I can find the word thlipsis used anywhere in Revelation the way that you are interpreting it.
Part of our problem (more yours, actually
That sounds about right.
But how can you deem the 1,000 years being a literal 1,000 years when all of Revelation is chocked full of allegorical...figurative language? I know the pat answer is context. But what context shows that 1,000 being literal when other time references state otherwise?
70 weeks = 490 years
1 hour = a short time( I agree with this, just using it as an example)
1,000 years = 1,000 years
How does context prove a literal 1,000 years?
Perhaps if you use the correct word it becomes clearer.
70 7s. (Heptads) If 70 7s is not 490, what is it? I started out life as a Nuclear Engineer before the Lord changed my direction. I have a pretty good understanding of math and I can't think of any reason to not understand that 70 x 7 = 490.
And we still use the word "hour" to mean an indeterminate measure of time. "My hour has not yet come."
I see no reason to not understand that 1000 years equals 1000 years.
The error many Dispensationalists make is forcing their Dispensationalist hermeneutic on the bible in an effort to make the bible support their presuppositions.
And the Covenanters often make the same error, forcing their Covenant hermeneutic on the bible in an effort to make the bible support their presuppositions.
That's me. An hysteric Chilly ist.You...you...chilly-ally-ist!!!
Perhaps if you use the correct word it becomes clearer.
70 7s. (Heptads) If 70 7s is not 490, what is it? I started out life as a Nuclear Engineer before the Lord changed my direction. I have a pretty good understanding of math and I can't think of any reason to not understand that 70 x 7 = 490.
And we still use the word "hour" to mean an indeterminate measure of time. "My hour has not yet come."
I see no reason to not understand that 1000 years equals 1000 years.
The error many Dispensationalists make is forcing their Dispensationalist hermeneutic on the bible in an effort to make the bible support their presuppositions.
And the Covenanters often make the same error, forcing their Covenant hermeneutic on the bible in an effort to make the bible support their presuppositions.
Being far from a hebrew expert, I found the word translated 'week' in KJV is shabuwa which means seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week, period of seven days, a week, Feast of Weeks, heptad, seven (of years). So I see why the KJV uses 'week' in Daniel 9:24. Now a serious question. How was shabuwa properly used as year and not week in 9:24?
It simply means "seven." Seven of what is determined from context.
Where common sense makes good sense why make it nonsense?
Now for some clarity...how does years better fit than weeks in Daniel 9:24? I ask in all sincerity.
Verses 25 and 26 put it in context.
Danial 9:25 “Know therefore and discern that from the going out of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Anointed One, the prince, will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be built again, with street and moat, even in troubled times.
26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One will be cut off, and will have nothing. The people of the prince who come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will be with a flood, and war will be even to the end. Desolations are determined.
Danial 9:25 “Know therefore and discern that from the going out of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Anointed One, the prince, will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be built again, with street and moat, even in troubled times.
26 After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One will be cut off, and will have nothing. The people of the prince who come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will be with a flood, and war will be even to the end. Desolations are determined.
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.And I shall ask you that same question, Monsieur.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Six times in these seven verses "thousand years" is used, and they are used in a chronological or historical sense. That you should think, in this type of context, the phrase should be allegorical is quite amazing.
The quote is correctly stated as "When the plain sense makes common sense seek no other sense lest you get nonsense."And I shall ask you that same question, Monsieur.
The bible is not written in code. The words mean what they say and say what they mean except when it is obvious metaphorical language.