Resurrection!/Rapture?

[Darrell C]

The Premil system of interpretation has nothing to say to the first readers of Revelation.

Sure it does:


Revelation 1:19

King James Version (KJV)

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;


They are given one of the greatest testimonies of Christ's Deity, they are given instruction in righteousness, and they are given Prophecy.

This would be, if you don't mind me saying so, like saying Daniel didn't give anything to his readers. That is just the nature of Scripture. We look at the Mystery of the Gospel, knowing that not one Old Testament Saint had the understanding you and I have been afforded. While they knew a Messiah was coming, and a Kingdom, and a King, their minds were given a temporal understanding from which they reasoned in the Scriptures.

Just as Matthew 24 is primarily for that generation seeing those events they are told to look for, even so Revelation is. God has always told men what was going to happen long in advance, and it is no different in Revelation.

It is all stuck thousands of years into the future.

Not all of it. Al through the centuries believers have looked to the Epistles to the Churches for admonition and exhortation. It has filled countless believers with hope, knowing that in the end...good triumphs over evil, and evil will cease.

The Amil interpretation is correct because it has relevance for all Christians at all times.

I'll be honest, I wish I could embrace the A-Mil position, seriously. But I cannot.


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[Darrell C]

Despite all the efforts of Satan and his minions, the word of God will continue to spread (as we see it doing today in China, Africa, South America etc.) until just before Christ's coming.

Again, consider that their ministry is 42 months. Antichrist's rampage is 42 months.

There is no space in there for a cessation of Christian Testimony.

You would have to embrace a seven year period, and even if you did it would still not work out. Only when the Tribulation is seven years, and the Witnesses die in the middle, do we see a reconciliation of all relevant Scriptures. This coincides with Daniel...


Daniel 9:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Now just for consideration, if you view this as speaking of Christ "confirming the Covenant (which I view to be the Covenant of Law)," ask yourself...

1. Will Christians destroy the City and the Sanctuary?

2. Shall Christ make it Desolate?

3. Shall Christ confirm a Covenant ...? Meaning, the New Covenant was established upon/through His death, and no other Covenant will ever be established. If we try to make these events fit the first century, we would have to also conclude that it was many years later that the New Covenant was established. While we can, I think, find an application of Prophecy to first century events, seeing that Prophecy often has multiple applications, the final fulfillment will not correlate to the events of the first century and remain consistent with how Prophecy is fulfilled, which is, to the jot and tittle.


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[Darrell C]

All God's people will be gathered in.

Revelation 17:12
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1 John 2:18). The Beast exists all the way through the Christian era. I see no reason why these kings should have to be coming all together.
[/QUOTE]

But that is not what the text states. It is made clear that the Ten Kings belong to a Kingdom that was not in existence at that point in time. As mentioned in a previous post, this would mean, if it referred to Rome...that only one hill was there, and in the meantime, or future, another "hill" arises in Rome.

Again, what use would it have been to 1st Century Christians right up to today if these ten kings aren't coming until the end?

Same use knowledge of these Ten Kings had for Daniel's Readers. What use was the explaining of the Statue in Daniel?

That is Just not a good argument.

It also leads to confusion. In the 1990s, when there were ten countries in the European Union, all the Dispensationalists in Britain were terribly excited because they thought the Time had come. When more countries joined the E.U. it made Christians look stupid.

Well, personally I think one aspect of such belief was racially motivated. There are a number of people who deny that Israel is Israel, and that Israel actually expanded and became the white European Nations. My own view is that this final Kingdom/Empire will be made up of all of the previous primary Kingdoms, some in divided states which accounts for extra Kings. The Old Testament lists nations which are prophesied for judgment. And while I do not embrace the view of our Progressive Dispensational brothers, who are not as far from our A-Mil brothers as they would like to think, which is that the Tribulation will be local to the Middle East, I do think that this region will present the primary players of that final Empire.


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[Darrell C]

So explain the Tribulation Martyrs:
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The tribulation martyrs are all the way through the Christian era.

This is true, but, I was referring to those who die in the Tribulation. They testify of Christian Witness during Antichrist's rampage.

The dragon is wroth with the woman all that time, and there have been, are and will be martyrs until our Lord returns (Rev. 6:9-12). I hardly think that you will deny that.

Yet we see a period in which Satan and the Beast set forth on a campaign which is given it's time during the Tribulation, and again we see 3 1/2 years prescribed as the length of time:


Revelation 12:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Although I disagree fundamentally with Dispensationalism, I do want to say that I regard everyone who is looking forward to the physical return o the Lord Jesus in glory as my brother in Christ. I appreciate the desire of Dispensationalists to be biblical in their approach, even though I don't believe they have quite achieved their desire. I also thank you for your courtesy in our discussions.

God bless.

I look at it that way too. Salvation is not based on flawless doctrine, or even application of doctrine, it is only through the shed blood of Christ, imparted apart from meritorious effort.

As far as "achieving desire," I think it could be said of everyone comfortable in their Theology...they have fulfilled their desire. May the Lord help us to find the truth always.


God bless.