Review of Free Will 2

[Rockson]

Contradict yourself much? You believe the sinner is spiritually dead and then refute your own statement by saying the sinner is sick?

Why are you questioning me on this? I didn't make up this analogy. Jesus did. He knew people were spiritually dead and yet he said what he said in Lk 5:32

Also, you are not making sense. You say that the sinner is out of fellowship with God, which is a higher quality of life called eternal life. So being out of fellowship with God is a higher quality of life?

Yes, there are a few different greek words for life.

1. Bios, in Luke 8:14,

2. Psuche, in Matt. 16:25

3. Zoe, in John 1:4

Zoe is the life, love and nature of God.

 

[Reformed]

When are you going to stop using this faulty way of reasoning that spiritual death is the same as physical. Someone in spiritual death still has consciousness... they can hear talk reason and respond.

Because the word used in Ephesians 2:1 means physical death. νεκρους (nekrous) is the word used to describe a dead body. When Paul wrote that the Ephesians former spiritual state was "dead in your trespasses and sins" he meant exactly that. He never said they were physically dead, and no Monergist makes that claim. The same word is used in Colossians 2:13. You do not like my take on the word? Strong says of nekrous:

"dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God."

Using Strong's words the sinner is, "not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions" and "unresponsive to life-giving influences...inoperative to the things of God."

So, a plain normative reading of the text leads to the logical conclusion that the sinner is spiritually dead and "not able to respond" and "inoperative to the things of God".

As I said earlier to @InTheLight , you do not have to agree with the Monergist position (which you clearly do not), but do not expect me to cede to your "faulty way of reasoning".

 

[Reformed]

Why are you questioning me on this?

Because your understanding of scripture is wrong. And get off of your moral high horse, as though no one can question you. This is what debate is all about. We question, we disagree, we present our arguments and counter-arguments. Are you expecting your opponent to bow in your presence and yield the floor to your serum logic? You have a lot to learn.

Yes, there are a few different greek words for life.

So, you are saying that that the sinner being out of fellowship with God, is a higher quality of life. There is no higher quality of life outside of being in a right relationship with Jesus Christ. Even most of your Synergist friends agree with that.

 

[Reformed]

OK. I have a busy day ahead of me and will not have time for posting, so I need to bow out of this thread. Have fun, kiddos.

 

[loDebar]

And neither do we.

explain that

 

[JonShaff]

Because your understanding of scripture is wrong. And get off of your moral high horse, as though no one can question you. This is what debate is all about. We question, we disagree, we present our arguments and counter-arguments. Are you expecting your opponent to bow in your presence and yield the floor to your serum logic? You have a lot to learn.

Oh the irony, lol. I couldn't help but laugh when i read the first sentence here and then read the rest.

 

[SovereignGrace]

explain that

All men fell in Adam. If God did nary a thing, all would go to an eternal hell. It was out of all these fallen ppl God chose a # that no man can #, gave them to His Son to redeem from fallen humanity.

Election has to do with saving ppl from condemnation.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I am sorry for my part in the derailment of @TCassidy ‘s thread. It’s about the will not election. Again, my apology to @TCassidy.

 

[37818]

<snip>

Well, sorry, but this Monergist idea flies in the face of Romans 1:16

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel [a]of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

How? Please explain why you think this.
I hold faith precedes regeneration. I also hold salvation is wholly the work of God. One believing a truth adds nothing to that truth. A truth is not dependant on it being believed to be true.

 

[37818]

All men fell in Adam.

How do you understand that?

". . . The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. . . ." -- Ezekiel 18:20.

". . . Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses . . . ." -- Romans 5:12-

 

[loDebar]

All men fell in Adam. If God did nary a thing, all would go to an eternal hell. It was out of all these fallen ppl God chose a # that no man can #, gave them to His Son to redeem from fallen humanity.

Election has to do with saving ppl from condemnation.

what is it for then? If one is chosen to be saved , another is not chosen, How is it not choosing one to go to hell "before the foundation of the world"?

 

[loDebar]

How do you understand that?

". . . The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. . . ." -- Ezekiel 18:20.

". . . Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses . . . ." -- Romans 5:12-

it is a mantra, to reject scripture and establish it is not ones fault, It is a trick of the devil.

 

[TCassidy]

"Randomly born from above" into Christ.

Another untruth. How utterly sad.

 

[JonShaff]

Another untruth. How utterly sad.

Of all the statements i made in my post, that is the one you comment on? Ok, let's state it another way. You believe you were unconditionally born from above, and correct me if i'm wrong, thanks!

 

[Rockson]

Because your understanding of scripture is wrong. And get off of your moral high horse, as though no one can question you. This is what debate is all about. We question, we disagree, we present our arguments and counter-arguments. Are you expecting your opponent to bow in your presence and yield the floor to your serum logic? You have a lot to learn.

Well I'm sure I have my friend, I'm sure I have..BUT....when I asked why are you questioning me on this it was meant as a figure of speech which as to take you into the truth that Jesus was the one who used the analogy. He knew people were spiritually dead and yet he said what he said in Lk 5:32

Maybe you didn't look up the verse? Here it is from another gospel.

When Jesus heard it, he said unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mark 2:17

So why not admit that at least on this one point you were wrong? Jesus used the analogy!

So, you are saying that that the sinner being out of fellowship with God, is a higher quality of life. There is no higher quality of life outside of being in a right relationship with Jesus Christ. Even most of your Synergist friends agree with that.

No. That's not what I meant. I meant the "fellowship with God" IS the higher quality of life! Why would you ever think I'd come on here arguing for Christian positions and make light of the type of life it is living with God?? Anyways the type of life with zoe, eternal life is the higher type of life and merely having Psuche or Bios isn't.

 

[TCassidy]

Sorry for your mis-quote of scripture. Maybe you need to go back and actually quote what it says.

Okay, here you go: καθως εξελεξατο ημας εν αυτω προ καταβολης κοσμου ειναι ημας αγιους και αμωμους κατενωπιον αυτου εν αγαπη.

 

[TCassidy]

You believe you were unconditionally born from above, and correct me if i'm wrong, thanks!

I believe I met no condition of holiness to merit salvation. God elects us according to the good pleasure of His Will. I do not presume to know the Mind of God. His reasons are His reasons and are far above my understanding. But, yet again, I am not surprised to see my position miss-stated.

 

[loDebar]

Further checking the phrase "bondage to sin" is found in the NASB Romans 7:14 the KJV has "sold under sin."

It is the same word for a Christian service, It is not involuntary servitude

 

[JonShaff]

I believe I met no condition of holiness to merit salvation.

Did i insinuate you did?

I do not presume to know the Mind of God. His reasons are His reasons and are far above my understanding. But, yet again, I am not surprised to see my position miss-stated.

So, can you be the elect of God without believing on the Son?

 

[loDebar]

I believe I met no condition of holiness to merit salvation. God elects us according to the good pleasure of His Will. I do not presume to know the Mind of God. His reasons are His reasons and are far above my understanding. But, yet again, I am not surprised to see my position miss-stated.

Then you also agree, God chooses on His own to not elect some and continue to Hell