Rewriting the Tulip

[kyredneck]

Does that strict biblicist view contain the DoG/TULIP?

Do you consider yourself to be a Biblicist?
Biblicism Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

 

[Silverhair]

This is true: man is born into a state of separation from God, and even worse, he has not the righteousness by which he could be deemed sinless.

And that distinction might be worth considering: That man is inherently sinful does not equate to "He can do no good," and I think that is the extreme that is forced when trying to reject man's sinful condition.

Even when we are made one with Him, we are still sinful. I've yet to meet the person that lives without sin in its entirety. The only Sinless One is Christ. We are righteous in Him, based on His righteousness, never ours.



What merit or action have you now, in the past, or in the future to offer to Christ that you might bring His Work to a point in which it can save you?

I'll be honest, this is surprising to me, that one might think they contribute to the Work of Christ.



Ultimately that is true. You shouldn't let it bother you that there are those who go to extremes in doctrine, and you should be careful you don't fall into that trap. This happens usually because someone has adopted a system and are unwilling to allow for error in that system.

R.C. Sproul embraced TULIP, but thought the "P" should be changed to Preservation. Because he acknowledged the implication of error in perseverance.



It cannot be, if that is God's intent. He allows men to reject His grace, but there are times when He does not. Jonah is a good example. Peter as well. And let's not forget Paul. Paul did not set out on the road to Damascus with the intention of becoming a believer.



It's just a fact. If you have embraced the doctrine of the L.O.S.T. (Loss of Salvation Teachers) I would be glad to discuss it with you.

Going back to Sproul (and I am at odds with some of his views, but the man was a great teacher, and worth giving a listen to), he attributed the persevering to God and His grace.



I don't think that accurately represents the view of many who embrace TULIP. Many believe that men must first be regenerate in order to believe. I myself take the position that the event of salvation in one's life works in this order: God intervenes in the life of the unbeliever (who cannot understand the spiritual things of God, thus cannot benefit from the only thing that can save him on an eternal basis—the Gospel) through the Ministry of the Holy Ghost, Who reveals to that unbeliever the truth of the Gospel. Apart from this ministry the natural man cannot believe, because he cannot understand truth in reality. The next step is reactionary: the unbeliever—believes. Belief and faith go hand in hand. Both are results of God's convicting ministry (John 16:7-8). My favorite analogy for this is, if I threw a bucket of icewater on you on a hundred degree day, your knowledge that it was cold would be a result of my actions. So too, with the Comforter's ministry, belief is not optional. The unbeliever knows he is a sinner, that Christ is righteous, that Hell is real and that he is headed for it.

And it is at this point that man can exercise that inherent ability he does have: he can reject the truth.

Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


Both passages show a willful rejection of the truth they have received. Hebrews compares the truth revealed to those under the (Covenant of) Law with those who have received the truth of Christ as delivered them by the Spirit. And it will be worse judgment for those rejecting truth than for those who rejected the Law.

The bottom line being, no man is born with an ability to understand the spiritual things of God, and at the peak of that mountain is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. One might have an intellectual understanding, but they will not know the truth as described in Scripture. A man can know that pregnancy is painful, but he cannot know as a woman does.

I am not trying to offend, just trying to help. I would suggest, based at the animosity being displayed, that discussion is not at this time profitable for you. You might want to step back a bit. I'd also point out that we are going to find those on the forums who get their kicks antagonizing others. They have no real intention of learning more about Christ, or of teaching others about Him. They simply get their jollies upsetting other people. If we cannot interact with others without getting upset ourselves, we have only ourselves to blame. And when our doctrine is sound, we find there is no need to get upset.

Doctrinal debate is a great way for us to learn, because it is good for us to have our views challenged. Everyone can learn something from everyone. The question is, do we want to learn, or simply defend a system, or our personal views. There's enough of that going around already, which explains why brothers and sisters in Christ are at each others' throats. How are we going to change the world like that?


God bless.

FYI those quotes that you attribute to me actually came from a PB web site explaining what the TULIP meant. EWF had asked me what “Primitive Baptist philosophy” that I found erronious so I posted these from a PB site.

These tenets assert that humans are inherently sinful, that God chooses who will be saved without considering any merit or action on their part, that Christ’s sacrifice was specifically for those chosen by God, that God’s grace cannot be resisted, and that those elected by God will persevere until the end. Understanding Primitive Baptist Beliefs & History - News from the life of a priest

Going for a walk with my wife so will get back to you later.

 

[Silverhair]

Do you consider yourself to be a Biblicist?
Biblicism Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

I actually do not like labels. I believe the bible is the word of God.

 

[tyndale1946]

FYI those quotes that you attribute to me actually came from a PB web site explaining what the TULIP meant. EWF had asked me what “Primitive Baptist philosophy” that I found erronious so I posted these from a PB site.

These tenets assert that humans are inherently sinful, that God chooses who will be saved without considering any merit or action on their part, that Christ’s sacrifice was specifically for those chosen by God, that God’s grace cannot be resisted, and that those elected by God will persevere until the end. Understanding Primitive Baptist Beliefs & History - News from the life of a priest

Going for a walk with my wife so will get back to you later.

Your information about the PB's is in error... I should know I'm the longest PB on here... The role of the Women in the PB church is not to teach Sunday School, as there is no Sunday School in a true PB Church... And they are not involved in any administration of the church... That is the role of preacher, deacon and the congregation... Preachers and deacons are men... Not one Apostle that the Lord chose was a Woman... Its interesting to me that information you got was from a priest... Who apparently was relating what he saw in a Progressive PB Church, Ours is Old/Line Old School... From one who is 3rd generation PB and over 50 years in the belief, I know what I'm talking about... Most come to it, from other denominations... I was raised in it... Brother Glen

 

[canadyjd]

Brother, let me ask you… why antagonize this fellow for his prospective, as self righteous as they may be? It is he who is posturing himself into a corner where nobody will dialog with him. As Christians, is it not our mission to seek to understand rather than offend? Now I’ve always been a believer in using the IGNORE feature if necessary… but not before someone becomes intolerable, but that’s your choice.

When I am intentionally lied about, publicly, I respond by pointing out the lies publicly.

Just to be certain, I understand his views and disagree, but it is his misrepresentation of my views that are intolerable.

As far as the “ignore” function, I tend to want to know when I’m being slandered.

Thanks for the advice, however.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Everyone alive is eligible for salvation. Coming to Jesus in belief and obedience is the key.

Are the folks that never hear the gospel “eligible” for salvation?

1 Corinthians 1 answers that question, BTW.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Your information about the PB's is in error... I should know I'm the longest PB on here... The role of the Women in the PB church is not to teach Sunday School, as there is no Sunday School in a true PB Church... And they are not involved in any administration of the church... That is the role of preacher, deacon and the congregation... Preachers and deacons are men... Not one Apostle that the Lord chose was a Woman... Its interesting to me that information you got was from a priest... Who apparently was relating what he saw in a Progressive PB Church, Ours is Old/Line Old School... From one who is 3rd generation PB and over 50 years in the belief, I know what I'm talking about... Most come to it, from other denominations... I was raised in it... Brother Glen

Does this site give accurate information about PB's?
Beliefs – The Primitive Baptists

 

[Silverhair]

As I said earlier those quotes that you attributed to me actually came from a PB web site explaining what the TULIP meant. EWF had asked me what “Primitive Baptist philosophy” that I found erronious so I posted these from a PB site.

@tyndale1946 said they do not represent PB theology so I sent him another link to see if that one did.

Just to be clear I do not agree with the calvinist/reformed/PB theology I see it as error and that it calls into question the character of God.

You referred to Hebrews 10:26-29 & 2 Peter 2:20-22 to show that man can reject the truth.

You wrote “And it is at this point that man can exercise that inherent ability he does have: he can reject the truth.”

I agree with your comment as far as it goes but you stop short when you conclude with “he can reject the truth”

I would modify your comment as such: At this point he can exercise his God given free will to either accept or reject this truth.

While an unregenerate man can not understand spiritual things they can understand enough of the things of God to turn to Him in faith.

From the time of creation man has had the ability to know and trust in the creator

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse

And since the cross those that have heard the gospel have had the ability to hear and believe.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Gods response has always been the same

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


God looks at our heart not our works/deeds. Those that trust in Him will be saved those that reject Him will be lost.

 

[Van]

I think we can allow that some that say they were saved but now aren't could still be saved, but in a period of rebellion. It's probably more true than not they were never saved, but, I see it as possible for a believer to get angry with God over a traumatic event. For example, I spoke with an "atheist" who was "once saved," but declared he had rejected his salvation. The reason? His eight-year-old son had died, and he blamed God for allowing that to happen.

People can attend a fellowship for years and remain babes. It is not surprising when, during a time of crisis—they act like one.

Believers are not exempt from emotion, and sometimes those emotions can result in such a declaration, I believe. Thus, it behooves us to tread carefully when we deal with such. Who knows but that we may bring offense to another child of God who needs restoration, rather than rebuke (not that restoration cannot be accomplished by rebuke, lol). The welfare of the lost and those in need of restoration should be a basic characteristic. I struggle with this in relationships in my life sometimes, and at times fail miserably. I need to be slower to anger as I am commanded.
God bless.

We certainly disagree. If a person is born anew, their faith in Christ is protected. That is my understanding of 1 Peter 1:3-5.

Yes, some people believe God should not allow our loved ones to die or suffer. But reality teaches that if we follow Christ, the price is not bliss, but adversity. Peter experienced joy when Jesus told him, one day he would willingly die for Christ. John 21.

 

[Van]

Everyone alive is eligible for salvation. Coming to Jesus in belief and obedience is the key.

God crediting our belief in Jesus and commitment to follow Christ as Lord is certainly the key to salvation.

 

[Van]

I agree that the acronym "TULIP" to illustrate the so-called doctrines of grace is far from perfect. I wouldn't rewrite it in the wholesale manner you suggest, but I find the "L", standing for "Limited atonement" is open to misinterpretation, giving the mistaken idea that people such as me who believe such doctrines somehow imagine that the number of saved people eventually going to heaven is comparatively small, in spite of what the bible says about an innumerable company that no man can number. I prefer the term "particular redemption", but of course "TUPIP", is not a word, as far as I know.

Your observation that "Limited Atonement" might be revised to avoid the misconception that only a few will be saved seems to make a mountain out of a molehill. Limited Atonement as stated in published accounts of the TULIP refers to the false claim, Christ did not die as a ransom for all humanity, but only for individuals chosen before the foundation of the world. This claim we were saved or damned from all eternity and there is nothing we can do to alter that predestined outcome for ourselves and our loved ones is false.

“L” should stand for Limited Redemption; All mankind has been purchased for God, the ransom for all has been paid in full, but not all men have received (or will receive) the reconciliation provided by Christ. When we are individually chosen (elected), during our physical lifetime, we are then made “at one with God” when we are spiritually baptized into Christ based on God accepting our faith in Christ as sufficient for His purpose, thus crediting our faith as righteousness. Yes we were chosen "corporately" before the foundation of the world when God chose His Redeemer, as the target group of His Redemption plan. 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes being chosen individually before creation because we all lived having not yet obtained mercy, which would be untrue if we were individually chosen for salvation before creation.

 

[Van]

When a pronoun is claimed to refer to what is precluded by the Greek grammar, the translation might be modified to provide clarification.

Ephesians 2:8 (NASB)
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;​

Here the "it" in the last phrase refers to the pronoun translated as "this" in the second phrase. However, rather than using "it" to clarify, the translation could use "salvation." Thus the verse would read, For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, salvation is the gift of God.

Because the pronoun (translated as this) is of a different gender that "grace" or "saved" or "faith" it does not refer to any of these word, but to the concept of salvation by grace through faith.

 

[Van]

Let's look at Colossians 1:23:

IF indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.​

Here the translations start off with a conditional "if indeed" (eige/G1489)

However the Greek word has within its range of meaning "since." Thus the verse could be translated as "Since you are persisting in the faith..." This view asks the question, "Since what" and the answer is "being reconciled to God."

Thus the proof of being reconciled is persisting in the faith and not shifting from the hope of the gospel! Our eternal security is provided by God protecting our credited faith, so we are unable to not persist if we are born anew.


“P” should stand for Protected Faith; those set apart and converted have their faith protected by God such that will always love Jesus, and anyone who says they were saved but no longer loves Jesus was never saved. But once a person is saved, therefore “In Christ” nothing can snatch him or her out of God’s hand, and because their faith is protected, they would never want to leave the faith. Once saved, always saved.

 

[Van]

The rewritten TULIP reflects the doctrines of the gospel, not the doctrines of men.
Totally In Adam - initially condemned
Unlimited Reconciliation - offered to all
Limited Redemption - not everyone receives the reconciliation
In Christ - those transferred by God alone into Christ receive the reconciliation
Protected Faith - once saved, always saved as our faith is protected by the power of God.

 

[Dave G]

the number of saved people eventually going to heaven is comparatively small

That is what God's word says:

" Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." ( Matthew 7:13-14 ).

"...Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:" ( ref. Romans 9:27 )

" Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." ( Romans 11:5 )

what the bible says about an innumerable company that no man can number

True, my friend, as that is also what His word says:

" After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb." ( Revelation 7:9-10 ).

" And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." ( Revelation 19:6 )

 

[Van]

Since Christ died as a ransom for all, purchasing those to be saved and those never to be saved,, then everyone can accept that out of the billions of lives through-out time, only a few will find the narrow way that leads to like. But at the same time, if out of say 50 billion, 2 billion are saved, that two billion would be a great multitude.

 

[Dave G]

Coming to Jesus in belief and obedience is the key

God's word tells us why people come to Christ:

" All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. " ( John 6:37 ). <---- Given to Christ by the Father.

" It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." ( John 6:45 ). <--- Taught by God and learned about Christ from the Father."

" And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:65 ). <--- None can come, except they were given to Christ by His Father.


...and why people believe ( and do not believe ) on Christ:

" Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." ( John 6:29 ). <--- It's a work of God for someone to believe on Him.

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand." ( John 10:26-28 ). <--- Because they are not Christ's sheep. Only His sheep "hear" His voice, spiritually.

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ). <----- Because they were ordained to eternal life.

 

[Van]

Ever notice some posters use the term "come to Christ" without defining what the phrase means; (1) to come to place our trust and devotion on Christ, or (2) to be transferred spiritually into Christ. (1) is an action we take, but (2) is an action God alone takes.

John 6:37 refers to being transferred into Christ spiritually, as the result is the promise not to cast them out.

John 6:45 refers once again to being transferred into Christ after both hearing and learning (as discerned by God) from the Father. A lip service faith would not pass muster as having learned from the Father.

John 6:65 refers to placing our trust and devotion on Christ, and no one can do this if God does not grant or allow them, i.e. they could not do this if God had hardened their hearts.

John 6:29 says the opposite of the claim of post 57. The work God requires of the people is to place their trust and devotion on Christ.

John 10:26 refers to individuals who are not open to God's word, thus they are not of My sheep, meaning not of the fields white for harvest.

John 10:27-28 refers to those already transferred into Christ, thus they belong to Christ, i.e. My sheep.

 

[tyndale1946]

Since Christ died as a ransom for all, purchasing those to be saved and those never to be saved,, then everyone can accept that out of the billions of lives through-out time, only a few will find the narrow way that leads to like. But at the same time, if out of say 50 billion, 2 billion are saved, that two billion would be a great multitude.

Are you so daft?... You want to play with numbers, out of 50 Billion, 48 Billion are saved, so I guess 2 Billion are not... Now that's a multitude... Not only that you show Christ as a failure and as kyredneck on here says, Christ has the preeminence... Now how can Christ have the preeminence, if he loses 90% of what, his Father gave him?... Brother Glen

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

 

[Darrell C]

FYI those quotes that you attribute to me actually came from a PB web site explaining what the TULIP meant. EWF had asked me what “Primitive Baptist philosophy” that I found erronious so I posted these from a PB site.

Okay. I didn't see anything attributing it as a quote.

These tenets assert that humans are inherently sinful, that God chooses who will be saved without considering any merit or action on their part, that Christ’s sacrifice was specifically for those chosen by God, that God’s grace cannot be resisted, and that those elected by God will persevere until the end. Understanding Primitive Baptist Beliefs & History - News from the life of a priest

Humans are, because they are born into separation from God, without the ability to be righteous. That is, to meet the standard necessary to escape judgment or come into relationship with God based on their merit. Because no human is sinless, it is logical to conclude they are sinful. It's just a fact.

In regards to salvation, again I ask, what merit or act of man obligates God to save them? This is contrary to a basic teaching of Scripture that 1) salvation is a gift, 2) God saves men because they cannot save themselves, and 3) Jesus Christ had to die in man's stead that they might be reconciled to God and have eternal life through relationship with Jesus Christ.

Going for a walk with my wife so will get back to you later.

I hope it was a good walk!


God bless.