1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Believing is a result of the new birth. As I said, whoever believes has eternal life.
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Rich men entering the Kingdom
- Thread starter Revmitchell
- Start date
I think you and I have exhausted this conversation. Nothing new here. God Bless
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
But people change the gospel into law when they make salvation conditional.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
And people who believe already have it. Faith is the evidence.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If you believe, it is evidence God saved you. Had he not, you could not believe in the biblical sense.
The Bible:
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16
Dave1689:
"He who is saved will believe; but he who is condemned will not believe."
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Only those who believe by grace will become obedient.
“When Apollos wanted to cross over to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he assisted greatly those who had believed by grace,” (Acts 18:27)
You do like "answering" with something unrelated to the post you are quoting. Remember the subject matter was the if-then of believing and salvation.
I think the IF-THEN is IF you believe THEN you are saved. See these verses:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household. Acts 16:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. John 20:31
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18
That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10
You think the IF-THEN is IF you are saved, THEN you will believe. See these verses:
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(Sorry, couldn't find any Bible verses that supports this.)
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
You cannot do the things saved people do unless you are saved. Believing is one of the things saved people do. If you do them before you are saved it is acting and hypocrisy.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Precisely.
No one is considered saved by God until they are "in Him". Since according to Ephesians 1:4 believers are "in Him" before the foundation of the world, then they are saved from the foundation of the world.
" according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:4-6 )
In verse 4 we see that God has chosen the believer "in Him" before the foundation of the world...for the reason that, they should be holy and without blame before Him in love.
In verse 5 we see that God has predestinated the believer to the adoption of children ( to be the sons of God, see Romans 8:14, Galatians 4:5 ), by Jesus Christ, to Himself.
Finally, in verse 6 we see the reason why all this was done...to the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein ( His grace ) He hath made us accepted in the beloved of God.
Off topic, but answered from Scripture. It clearly states that the "us" was chosen "in Him" before the foundation of the world.
Saved = " In Him".
I agree.
When God chose the believer, He placed them "in Christ" at that point...the starting time was "before the foundation of the world."
Exactly.
" He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." ( John 3:18 )
"Is not condemned" is a state of being. Believing on Christ is evidence that those who believe are not condemned. Those who do not believe, are condemned already. That is the evidence that they are condemned.
Here the Middle English word " because" is a bit different than the way we use it today in America. Back then, the word "because" meant, "by reason of", or more literally, " by cause" or "that". Simplified, the reason that people do not believe on Christ is "that" they are condemned already.
" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 )
Here it plainly states that the reason the Jews did not believe, was "because" or "that" they were not "of" His sheep.
What "things" were written?
" And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." ( John 20:30-31 )
The things that were written in the book of John, were written so that the believer ( the reader who believes, as opposed to the reader who does not ) would believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
I agree.
I've underlined the words to make it easier to see.
He who believes ( present tense ) has everlasting life...not "will have".
He who does not believe shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides ( present tense ) on him. The reason a person does not believe on Christ, is because ( "that" ) the wrath of God abides on him.
May God bless you, gentlemen.
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We know the rich young ruler was not a disciple that followed Christ and I agree with Kentucky... But to call him an unbeliever?... That in my book is stretching the truth!... What about these ones... One just married a wife, one had to bury his father and one had a piece of land to tend too... Your call?... Brother Glen
John D. Wright
Member
While I do think it is harder for a rich person to be saved than a poor person, I don't think this verse necessarily supports that idea. Rich people in those days were in the eyes of society the most holy people. They were viewed as blessed by God and more likely to go to heaven than anyone.
Look at the response of the disciples
Luke 18:
26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee.
Peter asks the obvious question given the cultural view. Who can be saved? You see the rich young ruler just refused to give up his wealth and follow Jesus. Whenever someone tried to claim to be morally sufficient for the kingdom, Jesus always shot them down. There is no one morally sufficient for the kingdom.
That is why in verse 27 Jesus explains that it is impossible with men but possible with God. Jesus is just about ready to do the ultimate sacrifice. That is the only way for men to be saved. The parable of the Good Samaritan is another great example of Jesus showing someone questioning Him that they aren't okay. Their standard of righteousness is not good enough. No human standard will ever be sufficient.
It seems according to the Determinist doctrines God could have saved the instruction for entering the kingdom and just simply told them it depended on their luck of predestination but personally I think God had good and true reason for instructions such as these.
Let us remember that Jesus didn't say is was IMPOSSIBLE for a rich man to enter the KOG. But to understand this, we must see what He meant by "the eye of a needle".
When Jerusalem was rebuilt after the Babylonian destruction, there wasn't as much care put into its wall as had been done with the old wall. An earthquake produced a breach in it that, to many, resembled the eye of a needle when seen from a distance, & that's what that breach came to be called. It was not guarded very closely, & merchants would often try to sneak a camel thru it on Sabbath nights to have a jump on the competition before the gates were opened when the Sabbath was over.
These merchants would generally have to unload the camel so it could fit thru the gap, and, of course, sometimes a recalcitrant camel would balk at going thru it at all. And a large camel couldn't go thru it at all.
Thus, Jesus was telling people that rich people often placed their riches above the love of God, & it was difficult for one to retain his riches & enter the KOG.
When Jerusalem was rebuilt after the Babylonian destruction, there wasn't as much care put into its wall as had been done with the old wall. An earthquake produced a breach in it that, to many, resembled the eye of a needle when seen from a distance, & that's what that breach came to be called. It was not guarded very closely, & merchants would often try to sneak a camel thru it on Sabbath nights to have a jump on the competition before the gates were opened when the Sabbath was over.
These merchants would generally have to unload the camel so it could fit thru the gap, and, of course, sometimes a recalcitrant camel would balk at going thru it at all. And a large camel couldn't go thru it at all.
Thus, Jesus was telling people that rich people often placed their riches above the love of God, & it was difficult for one to retain his riches & enter the KOG.
Don't all Christians believe that God has the final say in salvation?
How's that post count coming Yeshua1?
OK, just seems like it all according to the plan !How's that post count coming Yeshua1?
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
From what I’ve read, there was no such gate; that was a made up interpretation. In the passage, the disciples are so surprised they wonder how anyone could be saved. Jesus said it was impossible with man but possible with God.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
" And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." ( Matthew 19:24 )
I believe it was a literal eye of a needle, making it impossible to the extreme, from man's point of view.
I think, that if He meant a gate that resembled one, He would have stated, "the eye of THE needle", instead of the eye of A needle.
No, they don't.
Not all professing Christians believe that God has the final say in who is saved.
From my perspective, most believe that man has the final say.