Rich men entering the Kingdom

[Rockson]

Luk 18:24 Jesus, seeing that he had become sad, said, “How difficult it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!
Luk 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

If Calvinism is true then why would it be difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God?

Yes if God just picked the elect whether or no and that's it , it shouldn't make a difference. But it does. The other posters have quoted 1 Cor 1:26 and Matt 19:25–26 insinuating that God will still get his way as in what's impossible with men is possible with God. Have they taken the verse out of context? I'd say so. They want to make it seem that God will just smash his way through to get his way but I say not the case.

Does God just arbitrarily chooses someone to be saved and that's it? Or do these verses rather say when God makes the appeal to the wealthy or influential through the gospel people who beforehand could never see a need for God to the same degree that others (that is as the less influential might) now potentially they can. Jesus didn't say it'd be a guarantee they would.....but rather that it's merely possible. They could however still persist in their pride.

If not then what meaning would 1 Cor 1:26 have which says not many noble/influential will be saved. It seems to indicate pride is the only thing they have in common which is holding them back. If human pride doesn't block God and he just smashes on through then should there be an distinction whatsoever between the rich and the poor? How could there be? This shows humans can resist God and his genuine will for them to be saved and an irresistible force (irresistible grace) doctrine found wanting. IMHO

 

[Yeshua1]

" And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." ( Matthew 19:24 )

I believe it was a literal eye of a needle, making it impossible to the extreme, from man's point of view.
I think, that if He meant a gate that resembled one, He would have stated, "the eye of THE needle", instead of the eye of A needle.



No, they don't.

Not all professing Christians believe that God has the final say in who is saved.
From my perspective, most believe that man has the final say.

All Christians should see God though as having the final say!

 

[Rockson]

Not all professing Christians believe that God has the final say in who is saved.
From my perspective, most believe that man has the final say.

Well Dave doesn't that all depends on what one believes God said? If God said I've decided and this is my way that anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved and whosoever will may come than that is the FINAL SAY. Is he going to change his plan, system or method in how salvation is given, released and realized? Of course not. So men having the freedom to choose how does that negate that God had the final say?

 

[Yeshua1]

Well Dave doesn't that all depends on what one believes God said? If God said I've decided and this is my way that anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved and whosoever will may come than that is the FINAL SAY. Is he going to change his plan, system or method in how salvation is given, released and realized? Of course not. So men having the freedom to choose how does that negate that God had the final say?

Does God start the salvation, or do we?

 

[Dave G]

Friends,
This will take a bit, so please bear with me.

To me, the premise on why it is so difficult for a rich man to enter Heaven is not based on his pride, his dependence upon earthly wealth, or anything in and of him ( or her ) self, although the passages ( taken by themselves ) that state things this way, appear to do so.

As I see it, It is based squarely on who God chooses to save ( Psalms 65:4, John 6:35-45, John 6:63-65, John 10:26-29, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9, Ephesians 1:4-14, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).
When the Lord showed me the truth of election, He then showed me the truth of the passages that seemed to contradict.
In other words, as my reading intensified, He "back-filled" the details, with Scripture interpreting and re-defining the pieces that I was taught by men in pulpits for the first 25 years after my conversion.

Here is one of the passages that cleared it up for me:


"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:
27 but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 that no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."( 1 Corinthians 1:18-20 )


Breaking down what I see... my own "commentary" if you will:

18) The preaching of the cross is, to them that perish ( the lost, those who are going to Hell ), foolishness. When I read this a few times, I had to ask myself, " Do I look at the preaching of the cross of Christ as foolishness?" I remember sitting in Gospel preaching "services" and listening to the men speaking of Christ crucified, and I never once thought it was "bunk" or foolishness. To me, it was powerful, and deep down I knew it to be the truth... the power of God.

19) Now I see that the Lord, through Paul, is developing something, but that it hinges upon why the preaching of the cross is looked at as foolishness to some, and the power of God to others.
Because God is destroying the wisdom of the worldly-wise ( as the example of the rich man in Matthew 19:16-22, that Christ stated in Matthew 19:23-26, and that the disciples questioned Him about in Matthew 19:25 ). Worldly wisdom, the wisdom of men, sees that those who are privileged in this life are granted the grace of God. In other words, we as men see that whoever is blessed with earthly goods is blessed of God eternally.

Not true, according to Scripture:

" Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? " ( James 2:5 )

20) The question is then answered..."where is the wise?" "Where is the scribe (scholar )?" "Where is the disputer ( the person that would argue with God ) of this world?".
Another question is asked:
Hasn't God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

Yes.

Isaiah 29:14
Isaiah 44:24-25
Psalms 33:10
Job 5:12

Part 2, next.

 

[Dave G]

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:
27 but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 that no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 )


21) Paul then tells me that, after that ( after deciding to destroy the wisdom of the world ), in God's wisdom, it pleased Him by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
So, I see that there is a reason He chose to save someone, and that their belief is a result of that salvation ( John 6:29, John 10:26, Philippians 1:29 )...not the means by which salvation is gained; But that God's means of bringing someone to that belief, is foolishness in the eyes of the world.

22) Why did God decide to do all this?

Because the Jews ( religious people who think they know God ) require a sign...a sign from God. They are not happy with believing that He is, but that they need "concrete evidence" that He is real. To me, this is the essence of idolatry...bringing God down to the level of men, and demanding that He stand in front of them and prove Himself.The Greeks ( Gentiles ) seek after wisdom, philosophy, etc. They want God to be understood man's way, not as He is.

This can be seen at Mars Hill in Acts of the Apostles 17:16-34.

23) Here I see Paul stating that he and others like him preach Christ crucified, and for specific purposes:
A) To the Jews, and other people who see their religious ways ( those who are working their way to Heaven ) as gaining God's grace, it is a stumblingblock
B) To the Greeks ( Gentiles ) who seek Him by way of man's wisdom ( what seems right in their own eyes ), it is foolishness.

24) To the believer, who is "called" out of both the Jews and the Gentiles ( see Romans 9:24 ), Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God, not that of men.

25) Why?
Because, the "foolishness" of God is wiser than men...What seems foolish in our eyes, is, in the eyes of God, His wisdom.
The "weakness" of God is stronger than men ( examples of His "strength" include Gideon, David and Goliath, Joshua at Jericho, Ruth in Babylon, Daniel in the lion's den, Shadrach, Meshech and Abednigo in the fiery furnace, Samson slaying thousands, Elijah and the prophets of Ba'al, Moses at the Red Sea, etc. )

Part 3, next.

 

[Dave G]

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:
27 but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 that no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 )

26) Here is see Paul telling believers that they now see their "calling"...how that there are not many wise ( after the flesh, that is, according to the world's ways ) not many mighty and not many noble ( in man's eyes ) that are saved.

27) Again, why? It's answered a second time but now clarified.

Because God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise ( God's wisdom by that which, we as men, think is foolish ).
Incidentally, so much for God revealing Himself to all men, because according to Scripture, He does not...Matthew 13:9-11, Matthew 11:27, Luke 8:9-10, Luke 10:22-24, Romans 11:4-9.
...and the weak things of the world to confound the mighty ( again, Gideon, David, Moses, Daniel, Elijah, etc. God's power by faith, not by man's strength or his ideas of what are strong, like horses, machines, etc.)

28) Here I see that "base things" of the world and things that men naturally despise are added to those which God has chosen to confound, in addition to "things that are not" ( spiritual things of the spiritual realm ).
Here's the answer:

To bring to nothing things that are ( of the fleshly, earthly realm ).

29) Why?
So that no flesh ( mankind ) should glory ( take credit for anything that He alone does ) in His presence.


30) Paul reminds believers that they are "in Christ Jesus" ( in His spiritual body ), and Christ is made to them as Wisdom, Righteousness, Sanctification, and Redemption.
I've capitalized them all because He, Jesus Christ, is all of those things incarnate.

Wisdom:

" The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here. " ( Matthew 12:42 )

Righteousness:

" For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." ( 2 Corinthians 5:21 )
" But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." ( Matthew 6:33 ) <----- Seek Christ, our righteousness, first.

He is our righteousness...all other forms of "righteousness" are as filthy rags in the sight of God.
It is because of Him and His righteousness that any of us stand at all.

Sanctification:

" By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]." ( Hebrews 10:10 )
" And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." ( John 17:9 )

Sanctification in the sight of God for the believer is in the person of Jesus Christ.
We are dirty and sinful in any other capacity.

No one approaches God but by the sanctification of Christ's blood on the cross for their sins...period.
There is no other way to God.

Redemption:

" in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;" ( Ephesians 1:7 )

" who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen." ( Galatians 1:4-5 )

" Let the redeemed of the Lord say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;
3 and gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west,from the north, and from the south." ( Psalms 107:2-3 )



31) Finally, I am reminded of why He did all this:

So that a person that "glories" ( takes credit for anything ) does so knowing full well that the credit is due to God alone for their salvation, and for His grace and mercy ( Titus 3:5-6 ).




So...at the end of all this, why is it so hard for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God?

Not because of his riches, but because of God's choice to confound the "wisdom and strength" of men.
That is what I see, and it makes me very sober and still.



Friends,

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and please, remember our Lord's words that we not fight amongst each other, but to work these things out from Scripture calmly, and with sober reflection on what's written.
In the end, there is only one thing we can really look forward to as believers in Jesus Christ:

" After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I [am] thy shield, [and] thy exceeding great reward." ( Genesis 15:1 )




May God bless all of you in your studies and may He comfort you in your trials and tribulations.
He goes with you, if you are His.

 

[Rockson]

Friends,
This will take a bit, so please bear with me.

To me, the premise on why it is so difficult for a rich man to enter Heaven is not based on his pride, his dependence upon earthly wealth, or anything in and of him ( or her )...."

And yet 1 Cor 1:26 says it is.

As I see it, It is based squarely on who God chooses to save ( Psalms 65:4, John 6:35-45, John 6:63-65, John 10:26-29, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9, Ephesians 1:4-14, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).

None of those scriptures negate the fact that men don't have a choice to receive or not receive. With all due respect you merely add what you think into the texts.

When the Lord showed me the truth of election, He then showed me the truth of the passages that seemed to contradict.In other words, as my reading intensified, He "back-filled" the details, with Scripture interpreting and re-defining the pieces that I was taught by men in pulpits for the first 25 years after my conversion.

Well that settles the issue then doesn't it. If God showed you sometime well by gosh that means all here of a different opinion have to be wrong. Period. End of discussion. Why not more of flexible way of discussion on a message board such as I'm of the opinion God showed me. You put these things down to the level of absolutes. Wonder why God showed me the opposite of you? So where do we go from here?

 

[Dave G]

And yet 1 Cor 1:26 says it is.

Not as I see it.
To me, the key is in the passages that deal with God choosing to confound the wisdom of men... by making their choices moot, and His choice of men to salvation not according to anything a man would naturally think salvation should be based on.

This meshes with John 1:13, John 6:29 and many other things that Jesus said ( right "out of left field" from a certain perspective ) perfectly, in my estimation.
Things I did not start to pick up on until relatively recently.

Wonder why God showed me the opposite of you?

I have no idea...why not ask Him?
If you are His, I'm sure such a prayer would be answered Scripturally, because I know that when He "speaks" to me, it is always in accordance with His already-published word.

So where do we go from here?

Honestly, we don't go anywhere.
With respect, I realized a long time ago that you and I will never agree on certain subjects, and it is based on a fundamental difference in the way each of us sees the words of Scripture.

For example, when I see Acts of the Apostles 13:48, I see it plainly stating that only those who were ordained to eternal life ( chosen by God ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ), and appointed to receive the gift ( Romans 6:23 ) of eternal life ( John 17:3 ) ) believed on Christ via the preaching of Paul that day.
No one else did.

When I read John 10:26 and it states that the Jews did not believe because they were not Christ's sheep, then I believe it just as it is stated.
My entire understanding of God's word ( based on passages like this ) then revolves around His choices and His purposes...and it causes me to look at God as my Creator as one who commands me from His throne, and as my Father whose love for me is punctuated by His attitude towards sin. My sin is what got me into trouble to begin with...His love for me is the only thing standing between me and certain fiery punishment in the Lake of Fire.

His wrath is what I am saved from...His grace is what caused it.
My salvation and eternal hope then rest upon His choice to save me, and not my efforts to gain His grace or to do things that would release His grace to me.

In other words, my view of God, based on Scripture, is entirely different than yours.
To me, there is no discussion to be had, Rockson.
I've spent years "getting here" by careful reading of His words, and to me, it's because God caused it ( Psalms 65:4 ), not because of anything I ever did.

Basically put, if this were a local fellowship, you would be constrained by God's word to put me out of fellowship as a heretic ( Titus 3:10-11 ).
If that is what the owners of this forum, or its moderators, wish to do, then that is their prerogative and I cannot stop it.
Until then, I am at liberty to express my beliefs and understanding about Scripture the same as you are, even though we differ.


One thing I can tell you:

What was once considered heretical in many Baptist churches even 150 years ago, is now considered the norm today.
What was once considered as sound doctrine in those places, is now considered heresy.





I wish you well, and this is my final reply to you in this thread.

 

[Rockson]

With respect, I realized a long time ago that you and I will never agree on certain subjects, and it is based on a fundamental difference in the way each of us sees the words of Scripture.
I wish you well, and this is my final reply to you in this thread.

And I like how you put that. Certain subjects. No reason we can't be cordial and kind to one another even though were at odds with this. We probably do have a lot of other things in common we agree upon.

 

[MB]

Would you go and sell all that you have, and give it to the poor. Just to follow Christ?

 

[prophecy70]

Luk 18:24 Jesus, seeing that he had become sad, said, “How difficult it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!
Luk 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

If Calvinism is true then why would it be difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God?

Rich people were considered powerful and high in society so if anyone can reach the kingdom it certainly would be a rich man. But the next verse said
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

God saves.... even a rich man can not enter based on himself.

 

[HankD]

Rich people were considered powerful and high in society so if anyone can reach the kingdom it certainly would be a rich man. But the next verse said
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

God saves.... even a rich man can not enter based on himself.

So...

 

[utilyan]

For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.

Ewww....

Lemme put my cal glasses on:

For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for any person to enter the kingdom of God.

Lets just erase rich man , scribble in any person and......voila!

 

[Dave G]

For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for any person to enter the kingdom of God.

No one enters into the kingdom of God but by His grace ( Romans 4:4-8, Romans 11:5-6 ).
If it were by any other means, then it would depend on works.
Riches cannot purchase it, efforts cannot purchase it, and bloodline cannot purchase it.

Being a "member" of a group does not purchase it.
But with the Lord, all things are possible...He makes it so that any person He chooses ( Psalms 65:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ) can enter into eternal life, regardless of personal wealth and status.

He just happens to choose the poor of this world, rich in faith ( James 2:5 ) for the most part...( 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 ).



Salvation is of the Lord, not of men.
It originated with Him and His purposes, not ours.

 

[MB]

All Christians should see God though as having the final say!

I know you believe in God's sovereignty, though your view of what sovereignty means seems over stated in that Sovereignty to you means nothing less than absolute control of everything. However your view restricts God from giving man a choice. If God does not have the power to give man a choice with out it effecting Sovereignty then He is not sovereign. Remember all things are possible with God..
MB

 

[Dave G]

Would you go and sell all that you have, and give it to the poor. Just to follow Christ?

Yes.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.

Ewww....

Lemme put my cal glasses on:

For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for any person to enter the kingdom of God.

Lets just erase rich man , scribble in any person and......voila!

There are two reasons why it is very hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. There is a 'manward' reason and a 'Godward' reason.
1. Because rich people very often are satisfied with what they have and do not feel the need to find spiritual riches.
2. Because '.....not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of this world to put to shame the wise, and ....the weak things.....and the lowly things.......and the things which are not.......' (1 Corinthians 1:26-28).

The 18th Century Countess of Huntingdon used to say that she had been saved by the letter 'M.' If God had decreed that 'not any noble would be chosen, she could not have been saved; but because God decreed that not many would be chosen, she could enter the kingdom.

 

[loDebar]

The rich you ruler loved his riches more than he could love Jesus,. "the cares of this world"
In the OP, Rev has the question that the rich young ruler was troubled at the decision recommended by Jesus to abandon the riches if he was to truly follow Jesus, The rich young ruler made a choice and did not. so how is this election or non election?

Are the non elect sorrowful for God decisions?

 

[loDebar]

If a person trusts in money, they cannot serve God. So it is very difficult for the rich who think they are self made to enter the kingdom. But the truth of God's granting riches to some fixes this.

yes, you agree with Rev that this does not show predestination