Rick Warren & "Resisters", Those Believers Who Refuse To Change

[Revmitchell]

http://www.challies.com/archives/001468.php

 

[IveyLeaguer]

... I am glad to see that there are other "resisters" out there too. I don't feel so alone. I'm not a big conspiracy theory guy, but I do know that "something ain't right".

Hey Tim! No, you are not alone. But I know firsthand how lonely it can be. There are small to medium size towns where Purpose-Driven or Seeker have taken over the whole evangelical community, and Biblical churches cannot be found. People have taken to meeting in homes.

There is no doubt that people underestimate the force and power of the ongoing spiritual moves, especially Purpose-Driven. I wish it were a fad that will soon die out but I don't think so. Purpose-Driven has legs, and it's the unseen part of it - the complex, dynamic, and super-sophisticated mechanical foundation - that convinces me it is here for the duration. I expect Purpose-Driven to evolve somewhat and eventually merge with some other movements, which are plenty powerful in their own right. Money is virtually unlimited and secular connections to even more money are already in place.

Combine all that with the great spiritual force which is behind Purpose-Driven - a force that manifests magnetic attraction, as well as blinding delusion - and you have an entity that is broad and overwhelming in its reality. It is yet another subject but that simple idea should help you understand what you've been dealing with, at least to some extent.

Stick around!

:Fish:

 

[JJB]

Thanks to all for the information. Lots of reading to do.

 

[2BHizown]

Scripture holds ministers responsible for Paul's command to Timothy to 'Preach the Word'!
It does not hold them responsible for filling up a church(God's work)
It does not hold them responsible for motivational speeches, just the holy word of God.
It doesnt hold them responsible for marraige psychology, just God's word and principles!
You could fill the coloseum totally with humanity but without God's Word being preached, the presence of the holy One may well be absent!!
The huge seeker sensitive 'churches' today are man's effort to please God by saying, "See how good I did. I got this whole place filled up'. Nowhere in scripture is such a command given, just 'Preach the Word'. God does the rest and also gets credit and glory for all of it!!

 

[2BHizown]

2 Timothy 4

Preach the Word

1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at[a] His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

 

[npetreley]

Considering the subject of this thread, I would have bolded this, instead.

1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at[a] His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

 

[2BHizown]

That is a great and valid point!

Guess my thinking was regarding RW and what he and other ministers will be held accountable to God for!

At the same time, our world today is definitely showing a famine of the word, according to Amos warning. The word is rarely being preached and also the people have no tolerance when it is preached!!

However, I must say I"m blessed to listen to sound doctrine, expository preaching 3 times weekly and also blessed that the church fills up to listen to this strong doctrine!

I pray for more hearts to be convicted and that they will pray to be led to churches where the true, strong, doctrine and verse by verse preaching is given to hungry hearts!!

Soli Deo Gloria!!

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Another reformer chimes in with inaccurate information. That makes three already. Any others?

At least 2bhizown has told me something that I always had suspected. Reformers believe calvinism = Scripture. And you have the gall to call PDL man centered? :laugh:

You have it backwards. Reformers believe that Scripture = Calvinism.

PDL and the entire Emergent Church Movement is man centered.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[webdog]

You have it backwards. Reformers believe that Scripture = Calvinism.

PDL and the entire Emergent Church Movement is man centered.

Joseph Botwinick

You didn't use to think so... "...which takes a practical Biblical look at church growth."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=7134&highlight=rick+warren

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Wow, did you ever take his quotes out of context! Anyone can string together a bunch of one liners to prove their point. I could probably debunk calvinism in this same fashion by doing this with one of Piper's books.

You mean to tell me that when you die, God will give you a quiz on your stand about wearing suits to church, whether you were a calvinist or arminian, your take on eternal security, and other points of theology that are debated? Hardly. He will either see us covered by Christ's blood or not. Period. Do you think either calvinism or arminianism are doctrinal necessity to understand? Neither does RW.

BTW, you believe (as you say) that members ARE to disrupt the unity of the Church? Remind me not to attend your church! Leaders lead, congregation falls under the authority of the leaders God has put into place. This is the correct church model given us in Scripture.
.
...then there is not much room for anyone to show you that you are wrong, huh?

I'm tired of beating this dead horse. This topic was discussed in detail here...

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=6143&highlight=rick+warren

Webdog,

Are you saying that Christians can be saved and believe whatever they wish? Is doctrine important or not?

Are you also stating that the congregation should never question the leadership of a Church and should simply follow them wherever they go for the sake of unity? I am quite sure there are some Anglican Church leaders who would love to enforce that belief right now, but I am not sure it is necessarily Biblical.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

You didn't use to think so... "...which takes a practical Biblical look at church growth."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=7134&highlight=rick+warren

You are correct. I have changed my mind.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[webdog]

Are you saying that Christians can be saved and believe whatever they wish? Is doctrine important or not?

Joseph - believes Calvinism is correct.
Webdog - doesn't believe Calvinism is correct.
Joseph and Webdog - believers.
I would say yes to both part one and two.

Are you also stating that the congregation should never question the leadership of a Church and should simply follow them wherever they go for the sake of unity?

Never said that.

 

[J.D.]

I noticed that post was in 2001. OUCH! Webdog, you got a long memory. I'm glad I don't have any posts from that far back on this board. They wouldn't be anything like what I say these days.

 

[webdog]

You are correct. I have changed my mind.

Joseph Botwinick

Did the "biblical "model of Church growth change, or your perception of it? What made you change your mind if the Bible is your only guide, and you have never read any works of reformers? Was the Bible your only guide then, too? Did the Holy Spirit decide that He would play games with you?

 

[webdog]

I noticed that post was in 2001. OUCH! Webdog, you got a long memory. I'm glad I don't have any posts from that far back on this board. They wouldn't be anything like what I say these days.

I wish my memory was that good:laugh: It just so happened that post occured on the day I got married, and for fun I was reading "history" of what was said here on our wedding day. How convenient...:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Did the "biblical "model of Church growth change, or your perception of it? What made you change your mind if the Bible is your only guide, and you have never read any works of reformers? Was the Bible your only guide then, too? Did the Holy Spirit decide that He would play games with you?

Until last year, I had never read any books by any reformer. As a matter of fact, I think you will find if you dig through the archives that I also used to argue strongly against Calvinism. The very first book I ever read by a reformed theologian was Scripture Alone: The Evangelical Doctrine by RC Sproul. The second book I read by a reformed theologian was Chosen By God by RC Sproul. Both of these books were read by me in the past year. As a matter of fact, these are the only two books I have ever read by a reformed theologian. You know how many will say that debate on this board is futile because nobody ever changes their opinion? For me this was not true. I remember debating against Calvinism and being caught off guard by how much I was quoting man and how much the Calvinists were quoting scripture. I began reading more Scripture and really thinking about what the Word of God actually says and that is where my journey began toward reformed theology. It is also where my journey began away from man centered religion that Rick Warren offers. In 2001, I readily admit that I spent more time reading Warren, Shank, and books dealing with the issue of the Southern Baptist Conservative Resurgence from the moderate POV than I did the Bible. I felt a conviction from God to get back to the Bible and spend more time with his Word. This is the beginning of reformation for every believer.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[webdog]

I remember debating against Calvinism and being caught off guard by how much I was quoting man and how much the Calvinists were quoting scripture.

Wow. I guess perception is different for us all, as I see the non calvinists quoting Scripture, with plenty of quotes of men from calvinists. All you have to do is look at avatars and screen names to see this.

It is also where my journey began away from man centered religion that Rick Warren offers.

From page 1..."It's not about me". Yep, sounds man centered to me...

I felt a conviction from God to get back to the Bible and spend more time with his Word. This is the beginning of reformation for every believer.

Strange, this happend in the total opposite fashion for me, as I was leaning towards reformed theology, but Scripture pointed me away from it.

 

[2BHizown]

Thankfully God's grace is unending and can change a heart at any give point in time and we begin to see things so differently! Its both sanctification and grace that keeps us looking always to Him and His word and He continues to show us new glimpses of His truth, opening our eyes, removing the veil! It can happen to anyone who truly is hungry to know God in His awesome fullness and majesty!

 

[npetreley]

Until last year, I had never read any books by any reformer. As a matter of fact, I think you will find if you dig through the archives that I also used to argue strongly against Calvinism. The very first book I ever read by a reformed theologian was Scripture Alone: The Evangelical Doctrine by RC Sproul. The second book I read by a reformed theologian was Chosen By God by RC Sproul. Both of these books were read by me in the past year. As a matter of fact, these are the only two books I have ever read by a reformed theologian. You know how many will say that debate on this board is futile because nobody ever changes their opinion? For me this was not true. I remember debating against Calvinism and being caught off guard by how much I was quoting man and how much the Calvinists were quoting scripture. I began reading more Scripture and really thinking about what the Word of God actually says and that is where my journey began toward reformed theology. It is also where my journey began away from man centered religion that Rick Warren offers. In 2001, I readily admit that I spent more time reading Warren, Shank, and books dealing with the issue of the Southern Baptist Conservative Resurgence from the moderate POV than I did the Bible. I felt a conviction from God to get back to the Bible and spend more time with his Word. This is the beginning of reformation for every believer.

Joseph Botwinick

I love this story. Just had to quote it because I appreciate it.

 

[blackbird]

In 2001, I readily admit that I spent more time reading Warren, Shank, and books dealing with the issue of the Southern Baptist Conservative Resurgence from the moderate POV than I did the Bible. I felt a conviction from God to get back to the Bible and spend more time with his Word. This is the beginning of reformation for every believer.

Joseph Botwinick

This one statement is what the Southern Baptist Convention Conservative Resurgence is all about. The Conservative resurgence is all about getting back to the Bible and spending more time in His word---which is what reformation is all about!!!

Now--you are "clickin'" on the same level as I am, JBot!!!

Bro. David