Rick Warren & "Resisters", Those Believers Who Refuse To Change

[Dale-c]

Dale, I would be careful who you say is or isn't a "true man of God" and counterfeit. He doesn't preach a different Gospel, as he has been accused of by you.

yes, I am careful. We as Christians are to "judge righteous judgement"
I do not take that accusation lightly.

Legalism. The "my church model is right, yours is wrong" attitude. That's what happens when you read an article that takes quotes from Warren out of context. Don't read what others say about him, read what HE says.

Wait just one minute!!! Who is saying that "people must leave or DIE???"

I never said that! "Legalism is surely a problem but the problem is here that all who hold to Biblical Christianity are being called "resistors" .
Yes, we are resistors! We are resisting a false Gospel, a gospel of mans own goodness.

Again, read HIM, not what others say ABOUT him.

Ididn't post that until I went and read from his own web site. Now maybe he has no control over what is posted on his own site, but if that can be trusted to be his own words, then I DID read him.

Your post is proof enough, as it is spoken from ignorance regarding his ministry.

I am not sure what this is supposed to mean.

However, you consisitanly argue for a more man centered salvation (this is just my observation not menat to be an attack) so it is natural for your beliefs to go along with PDL.

After all, if it is man that can draw man, then why not do things like Warren?

Either God is God or man is god. I believe that God is ultimatly God and is sovereign over everything.
Growth for the sake of Growth is no excuse for weakening of the gospel or of alienating older people in the congregation.

 

[webdog]

Wait just one minute!!! Who is saying that "people must leave or DIE???"

I never said that! "Legalism is surely a problem but the problem is here that all who hold to Biblical Christianity are being called "resistors" .
Yes, we are resistors! We are resisting a false Gospel, a gospel of mans own goodness.

who said anything about dying?
It is clear you don't understand what RW means by being a "resistor", so I will not waste my breath again. Believe RW teaches a false Gospel, if you wish. It's clear you have no clue what you are talking about.

Ididn't post that until I went and read from his own web site. Now maybe he has no control over what is posted on his own site, but if that can be trusted to be his own words, then I DID read him.

I'm sure his website state that he preaches a man centered religion that's not the true Gospel, and everyone who believes in the truth are resistors...

I am not sure what this is supposed to mean.

However, you consisitanly argue for a more man centered salvation (this is just my observation not menat to be an attack) so it is natural for your beliefs to go along with PDL.

Translation: "I'm a calvinist, and calvinism is the only God centered viewpoint there is. You aren't a calvinist, therefore you are man centered." Man, such arrogance...

After all, if it is man that can draw man, then why not do things like Warren?

Typical strawman. C'mon, you can do better...

Either God is God or man is god. I believe that God is ultimatly God and is sovereign over everything.
Growth for the sake of Growth is no excuse for weakening of the gospel or of alienating older people in the congregation.

Strawman episode II. This is becoming almost silly...

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

1. I implied no such thing. If God says "seek Me", we can seek Him. I believe God draws all men, as Scripture states.

2. If you are a calvinist, you do read your own theological implications into Gods' Word, as it takes a lot to hold to only one verse while discounting the many.

Hi there Webdog,

Are you Holy? God told you to be Holy. Are you perfect as God is perfect? God told you to be perfect as God is perfect. Have you ever lied after becoming a Christian? Have you ever coveted what your neighbor has? God has told us not to do all these things? You are reading a theological implication into the Bible that is not explicitly taught, and that is actually taught explicitly to the contrary. I have discounted nothing in Scripture, only your implications that you read into Scripture. You, on the other hand, have dicsounted the explicit teaching of Scripture while reading your own implied theology into the Bible. This is, indeed, a bad place to stand for you.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Can you find any of my own words in that post?

1 Corinthians 1:20-21 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Amen and Amen! This is certainly the beginning of a strong rebuke by the Word of God against man centered theology and evangelism. You will also note what Paul further says in Chapter 2 right after this in verses 1-5.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

who said anything about dying?

Well, Rick Warren did. It is right there on his own website where you can read his own words about it and not the words of others who don't like him.

If your church has been plateaued for six months, it might take six months to get it going again. If it's been plateaued a year, it might take a year. If it's been plateaued for 20 years, you've got to set in for the duration!

I'm saying some people are going to have to die or leave. Moses had to wander around the desert for 40 years while God killed off a million people before he let them go into the Promised Land. That may be brutally blunt, but it’s true. There may be people in your church who love God sincerely, but who will never, ever change.

Link

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Dale-c]

Translation: "I'm a calvinist, and calvinism is the only God centered viewpoint there is. You aren't a calvinist, therefore you are man centered." Man, such arrogance...

I have never claimed to be a Calvinist.
However, there is only ONE true viewpoint. Either God is in control and chooses man or man chooses God. Can't have it both ways. One way is Biblical and one way is not Biblical.
You believe that man chooses God isn't that right?
I believe that God Chooses man and there is nothing man can do to earn God's favor.

One of us is right, and one of us is wrong.

If we can't agree there, then how are we going to agree on PDL?

 

[webdog]

Are you Holy? God told you to be Holy. Are you perfect as God is perfect? God told you to be perfect as God is perfect. Have you ever lied after becoming a Christian? Have you ever coveted what your neighbor has? God has told us not to do all these things?

Are you telling me that we can't strive to be holy, perfect as God is, a non liar and a non coverter? If we can, we can seek Him! You have an agenda, and you are twisting Scripture and meanings to prove your point.

You are reading a theological implication into the Bible that is not explicitly taught, and that is actually taught explicitly to the contrary.

And again, the same can be said about what you are doing.

I have discounted nothing in Scripture, only your implications that you read into Scripture. You, on the other hand, have dicsounted the explicit teaching of Scripture while reading your own implied theology into the Bible. This is, indeed, a bad place to stand for you.

I would suggest reading what you just posted while looking at yourself in the mirror. Your whole argument is based on "I'm right, you're wrong".

 

[Jarthur001]

"When a human body is out of balance we call that disease.... Likewise, when the body of Christ becomes unbalanced, disease occurs.... Health will occur only when everything is brought back into balance. The task of church leadership is to discover and remove growth-restricting diseases and barriers so that natural, normal growth can occur.

The quote above sounds like something Hitler said about those he hated.

DISEASES?? Come on. The only natural growth comes from his understanding, and "remove" others that restrict this????? Scary stuff.

 

[Dale-c]

Well, Rick Warren did. It is right there on his own website where you can read his own words about it and not the words of others who don't like him.

yeah, it is so plain on Warren's website. Don't know how anyone could argue with that.

 

[Dale-c]

The quote above sounds like something Hitler said about those he hated.

DISEASES?? Come on. The only natural growth comes from his understanding, and "remove" others that restrict this????? Scary stuff.

Perhaps we need a final solution to get rid of the "resistors"?

 

[webdog]

However, there is only ONE true viewpoint. Either God is in control and chooses man or man chooses God. Can't have it both ways. One way is Biblical and one way is not Biblical.

According to who...you? God makes the rules, and if He says it can and is both ways, who are you to argue?

One of us is right, and one of us is wrong.

Or we are both right on some points, and wrong on some points. Nobody has perfect theology.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Are you telling me that we can't strive to be holy, perfect as God is, a non liar and a non coverter? If we can, we can seek Him! You have an agenda, and you are twisting Scripture and meanings to prove your point.

Hi there Webdog,

The Bible does not instruct us to strive to be perfect as God is perfect, or to strive to be holy as God is holy. It says be perfect and holy. Again, you are reading a theological implication into Scripture that is not explicitly taught in Scripture. Lost man does not seek God, and neither do they strive to seek God. As a matter of fact, they are hostile to God and at emnity with him. Those are the explicit teachings of Scripture. If you can find an explicit teaching of Scripture that says otherwise, we will talk and try and figure it out together.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[webdog]

Well, Rick Warren did. It is right there on his own website where you can read his own words about it and not the words of others who don't like him.



Link

Joseph Botwinick

So, what is the context of "die"? Is it "I will murder you, or God will", as seems to be implied, or is the CORRECT context explaining an inward, self centered church that wants nothing to do with evangelism, where the same members who have been doing the same thing will continue until they die? I wonder...

 

[webdog]

Hi there Webdog,

The Bible does not instruct us to strive to be perfect as God is perfect, or to strive to be holy as God is holy. It says be perfect and holy. Again, you are reading a theological implication into Scripture that is not explicitly taught in Scripture. Lost man does not seek God, and neither do they strive to seek God. As a matter of fact, they are hostile to God and at emnity with him. Those are the explicit teachings of Scripture. If you can find an explicit teaching of Scripture that says otherwise, we will talk and try and figure it out together.

Joseph Botwinick

So you are saying God says we can be something that we cannot, correct?

 

[webdog]

The quote above sounds like something Hitler said about those he hated.

DISEASES?? Come on. The only natural growth comes from his understanding, and "remove" others that restrict this????? Scary stuff.

The "disease" is the person who wants to do what they have always done, which ends in results they have always gotten. The church that wants to grow away from the four walls, and quit being inward only to reach the lost will come across some people who will fight change. If you haven't seen these people in your churches, you must not have gone to church long enough.
I'm amazed that the great scholarly calvinists who know how to exegete Scripture perfectly in full context, keep pulling quotes from RW out of context...:tear:

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

So you are saying God says we can be something that we cannot, correct?

Nope. I didn't say that, and neither did Jesus. Jesus never said we could be holy this side of heaven.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

The "disease" is the person who wants to do what they have always done, which ends in results they have always gotten. The church that wants to grow away from the four walls, and quit being inward only to reach the lost will come across some people who will fight change. If you haven't seen these people in your churches, you must not have gone to church long enough.
I'm amazed that the great scholarly calvinists who know how to exegete Scripture perfectly in full context, keep pulling quotes from RW out of context...:tear:

It sounds more like the disease is somebody who disagrees with Rick Warrens man centered theology and dares to stand against it. I wonder if Rick prayed for the death of members of his Church as he built his tyrannical, abusive empire.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[webdog]

It sounds more like the disease is somebody who disagrees with Rick Warrens man centered theology and dares to stand against it. I wonder if Rick prayed for the death of members of his Church as he built his tyrannical, abusive empire.

Joseph Botwinick

Why would it sound like anything other than that to you?

I wonder if you are praying for the death of Rick Warren?

 

[webdog]

Nope. I didn't say that, and neither did Jesus. Jesus never said we could be holy this side of heaven.

Joseph Botwinick

Really? I'm covered under the blood of Christ, making me holy in the same way AAron was holy after having the blood from the alter sprinkled on him...

Exo 29:21 Then you shall take part of the blood that is on the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it on Aaron and his garments, and on his sons and his sons' garments with him. He and his garments shall be holy, and his sons and his sons' garments with him.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Why would it sound like anything other than that to you?

I wonder if you are praying for the death of Rick Warren?

No. I don't pray for his death. I do pray that God will drop the scales from his eyes and that those who are caught up in his false teachings and man centered theology will open their eyes and see the truth of the Bible. It isn't me, however, who we should even be discussing since I am not the one who wished death on those who disagree with me. I am not the fundamentalist extremist who declared a jihad on the infidel resistors. That would be Rick Warren.:wavey:

Joseph Botwinick