Roman Catholicism

[Jarthur001]

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/kingjamesonlyism.htm
This is a KJVO site, and he's not calling it a cult, but rather rebuffing the chagre as "mistrpresentations of those favoring modern texts".

Hi Eric,

If you have time you may want to reread the link..that is if you care to. Cloud, (who i do not care much for), is trying to say that you can be a kjv only and not be in a cult.

Some, though, as we have noted, persist in identifying every King James defender as a follower of some cultist, or of Peter Ruckman, who, from his base in Pensacola, Florida, has been occupied for many years with his weird, angry tirade toward the members of something he calls the Alexandrian cult.

I think that even Cloud is trying to say there are some that take it to far. And for Cloud to say this...this is something.

But..there again..you may read it another way.

In Christ..James

 

[mojoala]

I thought that I would like to start a thread on Roman Catholicism in general.

First of all, what is it that makes people want to be a Roman Catholic? Do most people just grow up as Catholic?

How can someone start out being a Protestant and then actually leave the Protestant Church to become a Catholic?

Secondly, Why is it that in times past. Protestants were so anti Catholic but as time goes by they are more and more accepting of the Catholic ways? And do you think that this is a good thing or a bad thing?

Claudia

I am a Protestant considering joining the Catholic Church. I was a Militant Anti-Catholic. I read all of the Anti-Catholic Material without actually sitting down and reading the Bible thoroughly.

One day I read an Article on "Call No Man Father" by a Catholic. I read. So I looked up the scripture references provided. The Article was almost correct. I read about the verse before and the verse after that says "Call no man father". It appeared I never really saw these verses. One says do not call yourself Rabbi(teacher) and the other says don't call yourself Master. I was a Sunday School TEACHER. I called myself a Teacher, contrary to what the Bible said.

So I was forced to reconsidered what I knew and what I had been taught. I came to the conclusion I was taught wrong. Now it may me wonder what else I was taught wrong.

So I made a decision to study the scripture in detail. But first I had to establish some rules:

1. Eliminate from your mind any preconcieved ideas.
2. Get a Bible that only has Scripture. Not one that has someone's commentary.
3. Read the New Testament from Beginning to End.
4. Assume your are reading the Bible as it is being written. IE: The next Chapter or Book does not exist yet.
5. Assume that each Gospel is a stand alone book, that it does not rely upon another.
6. Scrutinized every single verse.
7. Reread it all over, this time using a Greek concordance.

After all the note taking on my scrutinizing. I came to several conclusions.

On any given subject open to debate Catholics go to Jesus first and see what he said. We Protestants go to Paul first and see what he said.

It became an issue of Pauline Theology vs Jesus Theology.

The New Testament starts with Jesus speaking in the Gospels and ends with Jesus speaking in the Book of Revelations.

I can see the validity of Catholic Doctrine. All can be proven from Scripture either explicitly or implicitly.

I still have reservations about some Doctrine such as asking Mary and others that we can be sure 100% are in heaven to pray for us.

But 2 doctrines out of over a hundred being right? I rather take my chances with the Catholic Church that in my mind guided by the Holy Spirit is 98% right instead of my current Protestant denomination that is only 50% right.

Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Phi 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Phi 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

1Pe 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

As I step back and look, I don't see one mind, one faith, one spirit. 30,000 denominations are proof positive of this. Even individual pastors debate each other about scripture. Our pastor of our church argues with the pastor of our sister church in the next town over what the Bible teaches. That is not one mind, one faith, one spirit within a denomination.

Satan is conquering us by dividing us.

Baptism for example:

Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodist, Lutherans, and other baptize babies. We Baptist don't. Each group does or does not based on what scripture teaches.

I know what the Bible does say and does not say and that is the distinction.

Bible does not say Children were baptised.
Bible does not say Children were not baptised.
Bible does not say only Adults were baptised.
Bible does say that whole families were baptized.
When mothers went down to the waters of Jordan to be baptized by John the Baptist, the ones that had suckling babes, did they bring their babes as well or left them on the bank of the river?.
Bibles says via Peter that Baptism replaces Circumcism.

One should consider this Catholics Scripture on Baptism:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html
Read it for yourself with an open mind and a heart open to the Holy Spirit.

I am planning on attending the RCIA classes in the fall. To get it first hand from the horses mouth.

God bless and go live the Gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

So I made a decision to study the scripture in detail. But first I had to establish some rules:

1. Eliminate from your mind any preconcieved ideas.
2. Get a Bible that only has Scripture. Not one that has someone's commentary.
3. Read the New Testament from Beginning to End.
4. Assume your are reading the Bible as it is being written. IE: The next Chapter or Book does not exist yet.
5. Assume that each Gospel is a stand alone book, that it does not rely upon another.
6. Scrutinized every single verse.
7. Reread it all over, this time using a Greek concordance.

After all the note taking on my scrutinizing. I came to several conclusions.

On any given subject open to debate Catholics go to Jesus first and see what he said. We Protestants go to Paul first and see what he said.


It became an issue of Pauline Theology vs Jesus Theology.

The New Testament starts with Jesus speaking in the Gospels and ends with Jesus speaking in the Book of Revelations.

I can see the validity of Catholic Doctrine. All can be proven from Scripture either explicitly or implicitly.

I never met anyone that Joined the RCC because they thought the RC doctrines were Biblically solid! I have met MANY current Catholics that claim it though.

You are the first!

1. PRayers to the Dead
2. Mary Sinless like Christ
3. Mary co-redemptrix with Christ
4. Purgatory
5. Indulgences
6. Priests with "magic powers" that do not leave EVEN if they are excommunicated.
7. Tradition that flies in the face of scripture
8. CAlling for the "extermination" Of all those who oppose her "LAteran IV"
9. NO protestant SAVED UNDER the NEW Covenant because the NEW Covenant is confined to the RC mass!
10. Pope "Infallible".
11. Mary "assumed into heaven".
12. Bread that "turns into God" in a continued sacrifce "NOT ONCE for ALL" as it says in Heb 10.

It is pretty hard to believe that "USING the NT ALONE" you "came up with that"!!

How amazing!

How Fantastic!

I am sure that EVEN the RCC itself would love to know how you did it!!

"Jesus vs Paul"!!??? Even the RCC never made that contradiction!! You are truly going to be seen as a shining star on that one! Way to go!

 

[mojoala]

1. PRayers to the Dead
2. Mary Sinless like Christ
3. Mary co-redemptrix with Christ
4. Purgatory
5. Indulgences
6. Priests with "magic powers" that do not leave EVEN if they are excommunicated.
7. Tradition that flies in the face of scripture
8. CAlling for the "extermination" Of all those who oppose her "LAteran IV"
9. NO protestant SAVED UNDER the NEW Covenant because the NEW Covenant is confined to the RC mass!
10. Pope "Infallible".
11. Mary "assumed into heaven".
12. Bread that "turns into God" in a continued sacrifce "NOT ONCE for ALL" as it says in Heb 10.

One day I might answer each one of these. Some I can already give a defense to. Others will have to be investigated.

God Bless and Go live the Gospel.

 

[Jarthur001]

One day I might answer each one of these. Some I can already give a defense to. Others will have to be investigated.

God Bless and Go live the Gospel.

Would you care sharing the ones you have a defense for? Who knows, maybe you will win others over.


In Christ..James

 

[D28guy]

same

FollowmeHome,,

You said...

"At Sunday Mass in every Catholic church, there are two scripture readings, one from the OT and one from the NT. The priest or deacon reads the Gospel. The homily is focused around the Gospel reading for that day. At daily Mass, there is a scripture reading from the OT and a Gospel reading. If you attend Mass everyday for three years, you will have had the entire Bible read to you and explain to you in the Homily."

Of course, that is the standard, normal "stock" answer that Catholic apologists give. I've heard it, almost word for word the same every time, over and over again.

At the heart of the gospel of Jesus Christ FMH, is the truth that we are justified in Gods eyes by personally embracing Christ. And the gospel of Jesus Christ is clearly articulated in the scriptures, with its foundation being that we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. That truth is thundered from the scriptures over and over again.

The Catholic Church denies that truth vehemetly. That truth is rejected and even mocked by Catholic apologists. I have seen Scott Hahn deny it. I have seen other Catholic apologists deny it on EWTN. I have seen multitudes of Catholic apologists deny and mock that. I have seen it denied in Catholic written material. It is clearly denied, and replaced with the works gospel that Almighty God curses, in the still binding Council of Trent edects....

If anyone shall say that the ungodly man is justified by faith only so as to understand that nothing else is required that may cooperate to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is in no wise necessary for him to be prepared and disposed by the motion of his own will ... let him be accursed (Canon 9).

If anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed (Canon 12).

In these edicts the Catholic Church is placing its curse upon the gospel of Jesus Christ.

"

Catholics do not worship Mary, we admire her. We pray to Mary to be an intercessor just as you would be if you prayed for me. When we pray to Mary, we are asking her to pray for us to God."

Nonsense. It is goddess worship.

Here are some Catholic praters to Mary...

"Bend Tenderly Over Our Wounds

Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.


Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, he crowned you Queen of the Universe.


O crystal Fountain of Faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of All Holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of Evil and Death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!
O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten hardness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy church, make all men feel the attractions of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.
Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, your are the joy, your are the honor of our people!
Amen."Pope Pius XII

"

O Mary Bright Dawn of the New World

O Mary
bright dawn of the new world,
Mother of the living,
to you do we entrust the cause of life:

Look down, O Mother,
upon the vast numbers
of babies not allowed to be born,
of the poor whose lives are made difficult,
of men and women
who are victims of brutal violence,
of the elderly and the sick killed
by indifference or out of misguided mercy.

Grant that all who believe in your Son
may proclaim the Gospel of life
with honesty and love
to the people of our time.
Obtain for them the grace
to accept that Gospel
as a gift ever new,
the joy of celebrating it with gratitude
throughout their lives
and the courage to bear witness to it resolutely, in order to build,
together with all people of good will,
the civilization of truth and love,
to the praise and glory of God,
the Creator and lover of life.
--Pope John Paul II,"

These are not abnormalities. These are the norm. These blashphemous attitudes towards Christ earthly Mother are the norm. And they come straight up out of the pit of hell.

Sadly,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

same

Why is it that this new web-site sometimes gets "confused" and messes up posts like that? I triple checked to make sure all "italic" and "quote" commands were properly closed.

Yet...it posts that mess. :laugh:

Mike

 

[Rooselk]

...On any given subject open to debate Catholics go to Jesus first and see what he said. We Protestants go to Paul first and see what he said.

It became an issue of Pauline Theology vs Jesus Theology.

The New Testament starts with Jesus speaking in the Gospels and ends with Jesus speaking in the Book of Revelations.

I would ask this: Can Pauline theology somehow be separated from a so-called "Jesus theology?" After all, did not Paul himself claim that his theology came from God?:

For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel. 12For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. - Galatians 1:11-12

I would say that you're on dangerous ground for if we can set aside Paul, why not others? For instance, can we also set aside the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts because the writer was associated with Paul?

This reminds me of the problem at Corinth, where the Apostle wrote,

11For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ." 13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? - 1 Corinthians 1:11-12

Paul's theology cannot be divided from Christ for the simple reason that Paul's theology is the theology of Christ.

You have rightly pointed out that Christians differ on secondary questions like the baptism of infants. Even so, this should not be a primary consideration in a decision of whether or not to join the Catholic church. Rather, the primary issue should be what the Catholic church (or any other church) teaches about salvation. However, concerning Catholicism, even though they use similar language to that of Protestants, they still hold that in order to be saved faith must be infused with some "work" active in a Christian. This "works-faith" doctrine is a repeat of the error condemned in Galatians.

Someone else has said it better than I can:

The problem with Rome's view of justification is that they view it as a process, whereby we cooperate with God's grace in order to merit eternal life for ourselves, and even for others (that is a paraphrase of what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches). They view grace as a sort of "substance" that God infuses into us that permits us to do those works that are necessary in order that we might earn more grace. The Bible describes grace as the loving and favorable disposition of God; in other words, grace is all about what God is doing and giving.

We distinguish between the result of justification, which is the Christian life, and the work of God to save us. Rome mixes sanctification with justification. Why is this view troublesome? Because it teaches that something other than trust in Christ is necessary for or salvation. That "something other" is what we bring to the table. And the only thing we do bring to the table is our sin, not our good works. Our works are a response that God works in us, but not a contributing cause to our justification.

The Roman Catholic Church is very careful to state that even this "something other" is made possibly only because God has given us the "initial" grace to desire more grace. But in practical reality, it is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church is finally throwing people back on relying on what they are doing, or can do, to merit eternal life. When we mix in our works in the picture of our salvation, the glory and merit of Christ always end up becoming obscured.

 

[mojoala]

I would ask this: Can Pauline theology somehow be separated from a so-called "Jesus theology?" After all, did not Paul himself claim that his theology came from God?:

Which is the proper way to find an Answer?

Look to what Our Lord Jesus Christ said first so that His light might shed light on what Paul said.

or

Look to what Paul had to say and let the light of Paul shed light on what Our Lord Jesus Christ said.

 

[mojoala]

You have rightly pointed out that Christians differ on secondary questions like the baptism of infants. Even so, this should not be a primary consideration in a decision of whether or not to join the Catholic church. Rather, the primary issue should be what the Catholic church (or any other church) teaches about salvation.

I will answer that question with my Email Signature:

I'm already saved (Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5-8),
but I am also being saved (1 Cor 1:8, 2 Cor 2:15, Phi 2:12),
and
I have the hope that I'll will be saved (Rom 5:9-10, 1 Cor 3:12-15).
Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phi 2:12),
with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom 5:2, 2 Tim 2:11-13).​

 

[BobRyan]

Which is the proper way to find an Answer?

Look to what Our Lord Jesus Christ said first so that His light might shed light on what Paul said.

or

Look to what Paul had to say and let the light of Paul shed light on what Our Lord Jesus Christ said.

I knew that Muslims divide the words of Paul against the words of Christ - I did not know that Independ Fund Baptists did too!

The claim IN scripture ABOUT scripture is that the Bible is something that is authored by God Himself and not the mere product of mortal man's "best ideas".

2Peter 1:

20 no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God

So that means that those who revise the text as if it is “merely the word of Man” or the Word of “Moses” whereas the NT is “the Word of God” are simply not reading the NT!

Paul says "it is GOD's not MAN's"

1Thess 2:13
And we also thank God continually because, when you received the Word of God which you heard FROM US, you accepted it NOT AS THE WORD of MEN - but for what it is - the WORD OF GOD

For a specific example of scripture labeling itself as the very WORDS of God rather than
the words of man we see Hebrews 3 quoting the Pslams. -

Heb 3:

7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "" TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,...

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:From BobRyan
1. PRayers to the Dead
2. Mary Sinless like Christ
3. Mary co-redemptrix with Christ
4. Purgatory
5. Indulgences
6. Priests with "magic powers" that do not leave EVEN if they are excommunicated.
7. Tradition that flies in the face of scripture
8. CAlling for the "extermination" Of all those who oppose her "LAteran IV"
9. NO protestant SAVED UNDER the NEW Covenant because the NEW Covenant is confined to the RC mass!
10. Pope "Infallible".
11. Mary "assumed into heaven".
12. Bread that "turns into God" in a continued sacrifce "NOT ONCE for ALL" as it says in Heb 10.

One day I might answer each one of these. Some I can already give a defense to. Others will have to be investigated.

God Bless and Go live the Gospel.

That is a "Believe the RCC FIRST and then UNDERSTAND their doctrine SECOND" kind of answer!

I would expect it of a RC that is ALREADY IN the RCC - but I did not think IFB members ALSO took that approach with the RCC!!

How "odd"!

 

[BobRyan]

Regarding Point 8 -- Dr Carroll of EWTN's history section already admitted that the RCC sanctioned burning people in the Dark Ages for teaching what Billy Graham teaches.

An IFB member would have to "stray pretty far from the Bible" to think that such a religion was "right even if I can not yet prove it to be right according to the Bible".

 

[FollowMeHome]

Every Christian should defend their faith, the TRUTH will only come to you through the Holy Spirit.

There's nothing I can say to change your minds. Only the Holy Spirit can do that.

Peace be with you all. :wavey:

 

[mojoala]

That is a "Believe the RCC FIRST and then UNDERSTAND their doctrine SECOND" kind of answer!

I would expect it of a RC that is ALREADY IN the RCC - but I did not think IFB members ALSO took that approach with the RCC!!

How "odd"!

One step at a time. I never said I was converting. I said I was going to attend RCIA in the fall. Stop reading garbage where there is none.

 

[mojoala]

I am of an independent baptist and therefore have no affililiation of IFB. I have also been Pentecostal and Methodist.

 

[mojoala]

Regarding Point 8 -- Dr Carroll of EWTN's history section already admitted that the RCC sanctioned burning people in the Dark Ages for teaching what Billy Graham teaches.

An IFB member would have to "stray pretty far from the Bible" to think that such a religion was "right even if I can not yet prove it to be right according to the Bible".

So what are you doing watching EWTN? Seems a odd choice for a diehard Baptist? And we Protestants are innocent of like crimes? History says both sides had a fair share in persecutions and murders.

 

[FollowMeHome]

So what are you doing watching EWTN? Seems a odd choice for a diehard Baptist? And we Protestants are innocent of like crimes? History says both sides had a fair share in persecutions and murders.

Hang in there and keep up the good fight. I'll see you on the other side. :thumbs:

 

[FollowMeHome]

Quote:From BobRyan
1. PRayers to the Dead
2. Mary Sinless like Christ
3. Mary co-redemptrix with Christ
4. Purgatory
5. Indulgences
6. Priests with "magic powers" that do not leave EVEN if they are excommunicated.
7. Tradition that flies in the face of scripture
8. CAlling for the "extermination" Of all those who oppose her "LAteran IV"
9. NO protestant SAVED UNDER the NEW Covenant because the NEW Covenant is confined to the RC mass!
10. Pope "Infallible".
11. Mary "assumed into heaven".
12. Bread that "turns into God" in a continued sacrifce "NOT ONCE for ALL" as it says in Heb 10.


That is a "Believe the RCC FIRST and then UNDERSTAND their doctrine SECOND" kind of answer!

I would expect it of a RC that is ALREADY IN the RCC - but I did not think IFB members ALSO took that approach with the RCC!!

How "odd"!

You are a broken record. It really gets boring to see you saying the same thing over and over and over.

BTW, how do you spend 24/7 on a silly message board? You really need to get a life.

 

[BobRyan]

So what are you doing watching EWTN? Seems a odd choice for a diehard Baptist? And we Protestants are innocent of like crimes? History says both sides had a fair share in persecutions and murders.

The RCC CLAIMs to have DOMINATED the entire Romans Empire during the DARK AGES - Protestants DO NOT.

DURING that time the RCC CLAIMS to have instituted the "inquisition" - Protestants DO NOT.

Your attempt to bend and twist a few centuries in the Protestant reformation AS IF you could get them to become that THING that was in control of the former Roman Empire for 1260 years is truly - silly.