Romans 11 disproves OSAS

[evangelist-7]

Here is a text that "cannot exist" according to the FORGIVENESS REVOKED false doctrine:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:27-29

I taught we already explained WHO 28 refers to ...
-- dose WHO hear Jesus' voice
and
-- does WHO are known by Jesus
and
-- does WHO follow Jesus

A BAC must qualify on all 3 counts! ... Duz thou?

Further, we don't know WHO exactly Father God has given to Jesus.
WHO knows, maybe thou was.
.

 

[BobRyan]

In John 10 Jesus speaks about the faithful sheep, who hear His voice and follow. No Arminian, no Calvinist argues that these people are lost.

The test of OSAS is not in looking at the saints who persevere in following Christ - the test of OSAS is in Jesus' teaching about the fully forgiven people of God who experience forgiveness revoked.

Why avoid the very Bible details that actually put OSAS to the test???


Very simple question -- who is it that "stands by their faith" in vs 20 ? Pagans? Hindus living in Rome?? Emperor worshipers living in Rome? who?


[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

i said "look at vs 16 and 17 and ask the question who is Paul speaking about -- being "Fellow partakers" and "grafted in together"?

The lost or the saved?"

And quoted these two short verses.

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
[/FONT]
=================

But if that is your bail out point - so be it.

Bob, I have looked at all the scriptures you point out many times, and I do not believe they teach you can lose salvation.

I already understand that you believe in OSAS.

The question above is specific to vs 16 and 17.

In those two verses who are the Jews and the Gentiles who are "fellow partakers" in your OSAS-believing model??

Just telling me that you believe in OSAS - anyway- does not answer the question about those two verses.

 

[Amy.G]

Matthew 7:6
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

 

[BobRyan]

i said "look at vs 16 and 17 and ask the question who is Paul speaking about -- being "Fellow partakers" and "grafted in together"?

The lost or the saved?"

And quoted these two short verses.

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
[/FONT]
=================

But if that is your bail out point - so be it.

(John of Japan had a thread recently on the Baptist habit of using name-calling as a way to resolve Bible problems etc. Not sure he was entirely wrong in his observation)

 

[BobRyan]

OldRegular made a comment about the chapter recently.

[quote
Consider how Paul introduces this Chapter.

1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
.

Paul points out that a FEW "individuals" do not fall "There is a remnant".

The question many in the OSAS camp are ignoring on this thread --

"look at vs 16 and 17 and ask the question

who is Paul speaking about -- being "Fellow partakers" and "grafted in together"?

The lost or the saved?"

And quoted these two short verses.

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
[/FONT]
in Christ,

Bob

 

[Doubting Thomas]

The answer is easy, but folks don't want to see it.

In Romans 11, when Paul writes of Jews 'broken off because of unbelief' (11:20), he's not talking about every Jew (or the entire Jewish nation) but the UNBELIEVING Jews. Obviously, Paul did not consider himself or other BELIEVING Jews to have been broken off because of unbelief. Likewise, when he writes of those Gentiles who are standing BY FAITH, he's not referring to entire Gentile nations, Genitles as a whole, or every individual Gentile...he's referring to Gentile BELIEVERS (ie the ones who are actually standing by faith--11:20). This is obvious because not all Gentiles have faith in Christ, and so they are not all collectively grafted in. It is these individual Gentile BELIEVERS (those presently standing by faith) whom Paul is warning to CONTINUE in faith and the goodness of God, or else they too will be cut off and thus share the same fate as the UNBELIEVING Jews (11:22).

Of course, folks will ignore this, and continue to repeat something about 'Jews as a whole and Gentiles as a whole!', wave their hands, and miss the real warning taught by the Apostle in this passage. (I know--I did this for years)

 

[steaver]

The answer is easy, but folks don't want to see it.

In Romans 11, when Paul writes of Jews 'broken off because of unbelief' (11:20), he's not talking about every Jew (or the entire Jewish nation) but the UNBELIEVING Jews. Obviously, Paul did not consider himself or other BELIEVING Jews to have been broken off because of unbelief. Likewise, when he writes of those Gentiles who are standing BY FAITH, he's not referring to entire Gentile nations, Genitles as a whole, or every individual Gentile...he's referring to Gentile BELIEVERS (ie the ones who are actually standing by faith--11:20). This is obvious because not all Gentiles have faith in Christ, and so they are not all collectively grafted in. It is these individual Gentile BELIEVERS (those presently standing by faith) whom Paul is warning to CONTINUE in faith and the goodness of God, or else they too will be cut off and thus share the same fate as the UNBELIEVING Jews (11:22).

Of course, folks will ignore this, and continue to repeat something about 'Jews as a whole and Gentiles as a whole!', wave their hands, and miss the real warning taught by the Apostle in this passage. (I know--I did this for years)

Do you think folks ignore the fact that Paul said in the same passage that these Gentiles STAND - ONLY by their faith?? I ask because I know most anti-osas folks generally say a believer must have faith AND works/obedience/commandment keeping/etc to be saved.

 

[Winman]

i said "look at vs 16 and 17 and ask the question who is Paul speaking about -- being "Fellow partakers" and "grafted in together"?

The lost or the saved?"

And quoted these two short verses.

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
[/FONT]
=================

But if that is your bail out point - so be it.



I already understand that you believe in OSAS.

The question above is specific to vs 16 and 17.

In those two verses who are the Jews and the Gentiles who are "fellow partakers" in your OSAS-believing model??

Just telling me that you believe in OSAS - anyway- does not answer the question about those two verses.

Bob, perhaps you won't understand this, but in my view, God originally chose all the Jews to be saved. Every branch was supposed to be there. They were under the influence of the root, which is Jesus. They heard the word of God, they were under the influence of the Spirit. They were to draw from the root and grow and produce fruit. The ones broken off are not persons who believed and then later fell away in unbelief, but persons who never believed at all.

These branches being broken off allowed room for new branches to be graffed in. That is the Gentiles. They were graffed right in, not because they believed, but because they were chosen. This allows them to partake of the root, which is Jesus. They hear the gospel, they come under the influence of the Spirit, etc... God is reasonable and gives a person time to produce fruit, just as a person who graffed a branch into a tree would give it some time to grow and produce fruit.

Now, those that do believe and produce fruit will be left where they are, those that do not believe will be broken off just like the Jews who did not believe.

But it was not that they believed and then fell away later in unbelief.

It is similar to the book of life, you never read about anyone's name being added to the book of life, you always read about someone's name being blotted out.

Originally, I believe every person's name was in the book of life. But those who do not believe are blotted out.

I do not believe the book starts out empty, and when a person believes their name is written in, and then later if they fall away they are blotted out.

No, everybody's name was in there to begin with, but when a person does not believe their name is blotted out.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Do you think folks ignore the fact that Paul said in the same passage that these Gentiles STAND - ONLY by their faith?? I ask because I know most anti-osas folks generally say a believer must have faith AND works/obedience/commandment keeping/etc to be saved.

Just curious, what version are you using? I don't see the word "only" in 11:20 or in any of the surrounding verses. Granted, Paul certainly doesn't advocate the idea that faith plus (meritorious) works somehow earns one's right standing before God. This is clear from his epistles, especially Romans and Galatians. Yet, Paul is also clear that it's a living faith, one that works by love, that avails for anything in Christ Jesus (see Gal 5:6). A 'faith' that's devoid of works of love is dead and can't save anyone (see James 2).

So although the word 'only' doesn't appear in 11:20, this may be implied as long as one recognizes that for Paul, the faith he's referring to is a LIVING faith which 'works through love'.

 

[steaver]

Just curious, what version are you using? I don't see the word "only" in 11:20 or in any of the surrounding verses. Granted, Paul certainly doesn't advocate the idea that faith plus (meritorious) works somehow earns one's right standing before God. This is clear from his epistles, especially Romans and Galatians. Yet, Paul is also clear that it's a living faith, one that works by love, that avails for anything in Christ Jesus (see Gal 5:6). A 'faith' that's devoid of works of love is dead and can't save anyone (see James 2).

So although the word 'only' doesn't appear in 11:20, this may be implied as long as one recognizes that for Paul, the faith he's referring to is a LIVING faith which 'works through love'.

Agreed :thumbsup:

Which is why Paul is not speaking of those who actually believe and then stop believing, but rather has given the example of how God chose Israel, but not all Israel believed, in the same way God has now chosen the Gentiles, but not all the Gentiles will believe. Thus, fear, because YOU GENTILES (stick with the whole theme Paul has laid out) stand by faith JUST as the JEWS stand by faith, IF SO BE that they DO actually have that LIVING faith.

To this day the Jews believe they are saved solely because God has declared them His chosen people, a holy nation. Today, the Gentiles may read what Paul has said declaring them now God's chosen people and fall into the same condemnation, not understanding they must have placed their faith in God's Sacrifice. Romans 11 is clear to the objective un-biased reader that Paul is speaking about nations and not warning a true believer to stay believing, but rather warning a Gentile to be sure they actually do stand in faith.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Agreed :thumbsup:

Which is why Paul is not speaking of those who actually believe and then stop believing, but rather has given the example of how God chose Israel, but not all Israel believed, in the same way God has now chosen the Gentiles, but not all the Gentiles will believe. Thus, fear, because YOU GENTILES (stick with the whole theme Paul has laid out) stand by faith JUST as the JEWS stand by faith, IF SO BE that they DO actually have that LIVING faith.

To this day the Jews believe they are saved solely because God has declared them His chosen people, a holy nation. Today, the Gentiles may read what Paul has said declaring them now God's chosen people and fall into the same condemnation, not understanding they must have placed their faith in God's Sacrifice. Romans 11 is clear to the objective un-biased reader that Paul is speaking about nations and not warning a true believer to stay believing, but rather warning a Gentile to be sure they actually do stand in faith.

I am not sure how you can come to that conclusion, since the Gentiles whom Paul is addressing are said to be presently standing by faith. He doesn't question whether they really are or not, nor does he encourage them to wonder if they really are standing by faith, but he wrote "you stand by faith". It is the UNBELIEVING Jews who have been cut off, not the entire nation (or else that would include Paul and the other Jewish Christians), and they were 'cut off' by their UNBELIEF--not their Jewishness. Paul warns those Gentile believers, who were actually presently standing by faith (and thus actually grafted in), to continue in that faith (i.e. the one in which he stated they were actually already standing), or they too would be cut off.

No where does Paul say entire Gentile nations are grafted in irrespective of belief, nor are entire Gentile nations said to be standing by faith. Only INDIVIDUAL BELIEVERS of various Gentile nations are grafted in by faith and were in fact standing by faith (while INDIVIDUAL JEWS were broken off because of UNBELIEF). And it's those Paul warns can be cut off if they don't continue in said faith. The wording is obvious--I don't see how one can wave their hands and dismissively disregard the explicit teaching. Faith versus Unbelief is the key point here--NOT ethnicity. And the warning is that those who currently were standing by faith could be cut off if they did not continue therein.

 

[evangelist-7]

I am not sure how you can come to that conclusion, since the Gentiles whom Paul is addressing are said to be presently standing by faith. He doesn't question whether they really are or not, nor does he encourage them to wonder if they really are standing by faith, but he wrote "you stand by faith". It is the UNBELIEVING Jews who have been cut off, not the entire nation (or else that would include Paul and the other Jewish Christians), and they were 'cut off' by their UNBELIEF--not their Jewishness. Paul warns those Gentile believers, who were actually presently standing by faith (and thus actually grafted in), to continue in that faith (i.e. the one in which he stated they were actually already standing), or they too would be cut off.

No where does Paul say entire Gentile nations are grafted in irrespective of belief, nor are entire Gentile nations said to be standing by faith. Only INDIVIDUAL BELIEVERS of various Gentile nations are grafted in by faith and were in fact standing by faith (while INDIVIDUAL JEWS were broken off because of UNBELIEF). And it's those Paul warns can be cut off if they don't continue in said faith. The wording is obvious--I don't see how one can wave their hands and dismissively disregard the explicit teaching. Faith versus Unbelief is the key point here--NOT ethnicity. And the warning is that those who currently were standing by faith could be cut off if they did not continue therein.

DT, I'm not sure if it is really healthy for the rest of the members
for you to state that which is blatantly obvious.
It might make us wonder what you really think of us.
However, if you are only addressing Steaver, well ...
.

 

[steaver]

And it's those Paul warns can be cut off if they don't continue in said faith.

We have to remember this fact; Paul, nor any of the other Apostles, know for certain who is a true believer and who is just a tag along amongst the sheep. Thus the many warnings towards the congregations of believers to make their calling and election sure. Paul, Peter, John, James, they all give warnings that unless a professing believer Continues in the faith they will not be saved. This is not saved then lost but rather never saved to begin with. John gave testimony that those who were among them but did not continue manifested they were not ever of them. Jesus said many will profess to follow Him but He says to them I NEVER KNEW you.

Same goes for Romans 11, Paul is speaking to the Gentile Church and must always speak to them, and other churches, with his God given understanding that there mostly will always be those saying they have faith but may not have understood the gospel message of a changed life wrought by God. Thus the warnings to examine thyself. It has nothing to do with the saved becoming lost, rather everything to do with, as James puts it, "though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" All the Apostles preach the same message, that is, don't PLAY CHURCH!!! But truly born-again believers WILL continue in the faith as promised by God in all of His Apostles letters.

 

[BobRyan]

OldRegular made a comment about the chapter recently.



Paul points out that a FEW "individuals" do not fall "There is a remnant".

The question many in the OSAS camp are ignoring on this thread --

"look at vs 16 and 17 and ask the question

who is Paul speaking about -- being "Fellow partakers" and "grafted in together"?

The lost or the saved?"

And quoted these two short verses.

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
[/FONT]

And this leads us to the "Bible details" speaking about what the lost CAN do -- and what they CAN NOT do.
Here we see what the lost CANNOT do

[FONT=&quot]Rom 8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 because [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

Those who claim they are not "able to subject themselves" to the Law of God - are claiming the position of the lost - "in the flesh".

However Romans 10 points out what the lost CAN do that "results in salvation". (And I think they can do it by the power of the Holy Spirit who "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" - not just the born-again, not just the regenerate)

[FONT=&quot]Rom 10[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." [/FONT]

And as the text states - salvation follows.

Hence the "Able to graft them in again" language in Romans 11.

But more importantly - one simple question from Romans 11.

=====================


who is Paul speaking about -- being "Fellow partakers" and "grafted in together"?

The lost or the saved?"

And quoted these two short verses.

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,


[/FONT]
in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

To help answer that "easy Bible question" I posed above - more "Bible details" from Romans 11... not to be ignored.

[FONT=&quot]
1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Elijah tries to make the case that it is a NATION that is fallen and that this is what matters. God says what matters is INDIVIDUAL salvation within that nation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The context from Romans 11:1-5 onward explicitly addresses individual salvation as the focus.[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

We have to remember this fact; Paul, nor any of the other Apostles, know for certain who is a true believer and who is just a tag along amongst the sheep. Thus the many warnings towards the congregations of believers to make their calling and election sure. Paul, Peter, John, James, they all give warnings that unless a professing believer Continues in the faith they will not be saved.

Certainly that is True!!

What he does not say is that if you fail to remain in your current state - of lostness - by failing to "persevere" then you will become lostER.

All such lost-goes-to-lostER warnings to the saints as if the saints are lost when told to "persevere" -- is missing from the text of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Certainly that is True!!

What he does not say is that if you fail to remain in your current state - of lostness - by failing to "persevere" then you will become lostER.

All such lost-goes-to-lostER warnings to the saints as if the saints are lost when told to "persevere" -- is missing from the text of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

No Apostle ever warns such a thing, nor do they warn a true believer they could end up lost. The problem lies in your interpretation of the scripture in question. You fail to consider the full counsel of God's Word.

There is not one scripture which declares a believer will be lost if they do not persevere.

1Ti4:16 - "Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."

1. Your interpretation would have YOU saving YOU. We know this cannot be a correct interpretation because we have Paul declaring
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Therefore, your interpretation must be abandoned because it contradicts other clear words of scripture concerning how YOU are saved. You have to dig a little deeper into the Word.

2. Your interpretation would have YOU saving OTHERS because YOU "Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching". This would be ridiculous to think such.

 

[steaver]

And this leads us to the "Bible details" speaking about what the lost CAN do -- and what they CAN NOT do.
Here we see what the lost CANNOT do

in Christ,

Bob

It seems you only pick and choose which "Bible details" you will have no other scripture help interpret and which ones you will. I remember you did not like the "Bible detail" which states "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1Jo3:9) What does this "Bible detail" say the Born of God CANNOT do????

And some who do not like this "Bible detail" will run to other translations just to find it says the same thing - "CANNOT continue in sin". How do you like that "Bible detail" Bob?

Your "Bible detail" game will not work, proper exegesis MUST take into account the full counsel of God's Word and the Word CANNOT contradict itself.

 

[evangelist-7]

Roberto,

Whoopie ... you have 2 moronic posts to respond to! ... Enjoy!

But as for me, this blindness makes me sick to my stomach.
.