Romans 11 disproves OSAS

[steaver]

OK, you are interpreting those who are partakers of the root as saved, I am not. I do not believe every branch is saved, I believe the branches are individual Jews that comprise a nation who have opportunity to be saved, they are exposed to the word of God and the influence of the Spirit. Those who grow off the root and produce fruit (believe) are allowed to remain, those that do not believe are broken off. This allows all the Gentiles to be graffed in. Now these persons are hearing the word of God as the Jews did for thousands of years. They are expected to believe and produce fruit. If they do not, they likewise will be broken off.

I really do not believe you are having trouble understanding my view. I think you do.

A parable of Jesus that reflects this view is the parable of the fig tree.

Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

This is similar to Romans 11. It shows a man who planted a fig tree in his vineyard. After three years he expected it to bear fruit. When it did not, he decided it would be best to cut it down. This tree did not bear figs and then stop bearing figs, it NEVER bear figs. It is speaking of persons who NEVER believed, not persons who once believed and then quit believing.

His dresser argued for one more year, he would dig around and fertilize it. If after one more year it did not produce fruit, he would cut it down.

This is what Romans 11 is teaching. The word of God, the prophets, teachers, and Christ himself were sent to the Jews. They were all expected to believe and produce fruit. Those that did not were broken off.

This allowed all the Gentiles to be graffed in. This is the gospel going to all the Gentiles through Paul and many of the other apostles who went to the Gentiles. I do not know if it is true, but I have heard that Thomas went to India for example.

Anyway, it is not saying all these Gentiles are saved, but only that they partake of the Root, which is the holy scriptures, the preaching of the gospel, the influence of the Holy Spirit, etc... They also are expected to believe and produce fruit. Those that do will remain, those that do not believe will likewise be broken off.

But it is not talking about persons being saved and then lost as you are trying to prove.

Plus, you have to deal with the scriptures that show we are saved NOW, and that we cannot sin because our seed (the Holy Spirit) remains in us.

YOU need to deal with those scriptures.

Spot on! :thumbsup:

The only way Bob's interpretation of Romans 11 could be right is if ALL Jews believed and were saved prior to being cut off for unbelief. I doubt Bob is willing to take that position.

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;[/FONT]

OK, you are interpreting those who are partakers of the root as saved, I am not.

That is apparent in the text.

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

And what is worse for OSAS - is how that is connected to vs 20[/FONT]
In vs 20 those who are partakers of the root are said to "stand by your faith"

- your claim that this is a description of the lost condition appears to be a "reach" to try to save OSAS. It does no appear to be warranted from the text.

I believe the branches are individual Jews

I think we both see that part clearly.

they are exposed to the word of God and the influence of the Spirit. Those who grow off the root and produce fruit (believe) are allowed to remain, those that do not believe are broken off.

True. And those that remain are the saved individuals from among both Jews and Gentiles -- who "stand by your faith" in a state where "[FONT=&quot]the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too."[/FONT]

This allows all the Gentiles to be graffed in.

Indeed it allows all gentiles and all Jews to be grafted in - if they choose faith, choose to believe and accept the Gospel.

But not all will make that choice. I think you and I both know that this is the case with free will choices.

Now these persons are hearing the word of God as the Jews did for thousands of years. They are expected to believe and produce fruit.

Only upon belief are they grafted in / adopted / "made holy". For the "branches are holy" because "[FONT=&quot]the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too."[/FONT]


There is no such thing as the "holy state of the lost".

And only the branches that are broken off - or out of the olive tree - are said to be expected in the future to "be grafted in again".

Those who are already in - are required to persevere - to continue in their current state.
[FONT=&quot]but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]

-- You claim that some branches are in the vine - in a state of unbelief - expected to at one day in some future century - believe.

But the text says that anyone in the tree that is in a state of unbelief is broken off.

[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;[/FONT]

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/FONT]

 

[Winman]

I'm not going to keep arguing with you Bob, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Anybody who continues to argue with Bob and E7 are just wasting their time and energy.

 

[BobRyan]

I have no problem agreeing to disagree with you on Romans 11.

I have no problem paying attention to the "Individual salvation" statements in the chapter and now that you yourself have admitted to at least a few of the obvious statements in Rom 11 that focus on "individuals" -- I don't mind having your post as a reference.

When the "details" do not confirm OSAS - and those details are in scripture - it can be a challenging discussion.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

I have no problem agreeing to disagree with you on Romans 11.

I have no problem paying attention to the "Individual salvation" statements in the chapter and now that you yourself have admitted to at least a few of the obvious statements in Rom 11 that focus on "individuals" -- I don't mind having your post as a reference.

When the "details" do not confirm OSAS - and those details are in scripture - it can be a challenging discussion.

in Christ,

Bob

And I think you can see that these same verses can be explained differently from your view.

How about you admitting that?

I have said from the very beginning that there are many verses in scripture that on first glance "seem to" or "that could" teach that person might be able to lose salvation, but that I have studied all these verses and found other viable explanations for these same verses that would agree with OSAS.

In addition I believe there are many scriptures that absolutely teach you cannot lose salvation. So, seeing scripture cannot contradict itself, I have come to believe the OSAS view correct.

That is the difference between you and I.

Again, we will just have to agree to disagree, but you have not proved your view. Not at all.

 

[BobRyan]

And I think you can see that these same verses can be explained differently from your view.

How about you admitting that?

I freely admit that those who start out with the tradition of OSAS come to this chapter needing to avoid some details.

#1. Paul speaks to individual salvation at the very start saying that "in the same way there is a REMNANT in Israel" today that is saved. Individual salvation vs national failure WITHIN the Jewish nation is the starting context in Romans 11. Paul declares himself to be in that remnant of Israel that remains today - saved. Saved individuals.

[FONT=&quot]1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! ForI too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 “Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Elijah tries to make the case that it is a NATION that is fallen and that this is what matters. God says what matters is INDIVIDUAL salvation within that nation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The context from Romans 11:1-5 onward explicitly addresses individual salvation as the focus.[/FONT]

Paul declares himself to be in that "remnant" of saved jews that remains today - even amid the nation in rebellion.
[FONT=&quot]"God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! ForI too am an Israelite,[/FONT]"
[FONT=&quot]4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant[/FONT]


More Bible "details" in Romans 11 that the OSAS POV "needs to ignore" to survive this Bible detail - in post after post.

I freely admit that those who need to defend the tradition of OSAS - have carefully avoided speaking to this much repeated fact in the text.

#2. I freely admit that the question I have asked over and over about vs 17 has been ignored in terms of 'the details' about the "holy Branches" and those that are "Fellow partakers" as "Holy branches" - those who "Stand only by your faith" and who are to persevere in that saved, holy state - Jew and Gentile.

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]

I freely admit that the requirement to defend OSAS means ignoring the details here because OSAS does not survive them.

#3. I freely admit that in any topic known to mankind between Catholic and Protestant or any context, there is always one side defending tradition and skipping over this or that text that a given tradition does not survive. It is a solution that had long been tried - but seldom found to be compelling.




[FONT=&quot]13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

"Save some of them" is an obvious reference not to "some Jewish nations" but to "some Jews in the Jewish nation". Once again individual salvation is said to be the priority in Romans 11 in vs 14 just as in vs 1-4.


[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;[/FONT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman
OK, you are interpreting those who are partakers of the root as saved, I am not.

You find that OSAS has the 'need' to declare what Paul calls the "holy branches" that "Stand only by your faith" and that are only removed if they choose "unbelief" - to be the lost state of mankind.


I agree with you that the OSAS tradition as that "need". I do not believe it can be eisegeted into text however without doing a lot of damage to the text as it reads.



[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

And what is worse for OSAS - is how that is connected to vs 20[/FONT]
In vs 20 those who are partakers of the root are said to "stand by your faith"

I have said from the very beginning that there are many verses in scripture that on first glance "seem to" or "that could" teach that person might be able to lose salvation, but that I have studied all these verses and found other viable explanations

I keep pointing to the very verses and the details that case a problem for OSAS the response here is not to offer any explanation for how these verses on individual salvation can be shown to apply to the lost.

The only response I have seen is of the form "I prefer not to see that".

But that is not a Bible study - not a sola-scriptura test of anything. It is merely the stating of a preference.

I agree with you that Romans 11 is not the place to find OSAS - and that "many other scriptures" are the ones that are used. I think that even in the case of those "other scriptures" the case for OSAS is made more by extreme "inference" extending the text beyond what it apparently says.

And the "test" for that inference is the boundaries that we find - in place like Romans 11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

Well, you had your chance to man up, but you did not. I am not going to argue with you any more.

 

[BobRyan]

Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

This is similar to Romans 11. It shows a man who planted a fig tree in his vineyard. After three years he expected it to bear fruit. When it did not, he decided it would be best to cut it down. This tree did not bear figs and then stop bearing figs, it NEVER bear figs. It is speaking of persons who NEVER believed, not persons who once believed and then quit believing.

It is easy to portray the parable in Luke 13 as one of total failure - no John the Baptizer - no Apostles, no 120 in the upper room, no Paul in Romans 11 or the "at the present time there is a REMNANT" detail in Romans 11.

Without all those Bible details and just looking at Luke 13 you can come up with "nothing but failure" and if you assign it to the nation of Israel - no saved among the Jews.

It does not prove the OSAS argument - it just does not destroy OSAS as Romans 11 does.

So for that reason I fully understand that the Parable of Luke 13 would be a much preferred topic when trying to show that OSAS can at least survive a given text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Well, you had your chance to man up, but you did not. I am not going to argue with you any more.

I am sticking with the "Bible details" that the OSAS POV needs to "ignore" in Romans 11 while admitting that the parable in Luke 13 is a much better place for the OSAS position to point out that at the very least it can survive that parable.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[evangelist-7]

The scriptures say a person who is saved is "joined" to the Holy Spirit to become one spirit.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Let's keep things simple ...

Thou mayest choose to become unjoined.
The Lord mayest choose to unjoin thou.
and etc.
For more, see the NT.
.

 

[Amy.G]

Let's keep things simple ...

Thou mayest choose to become unjoined.
The Lord mayest choose to unjoin thou.
and etc.
For more, see the NT.
.

Can you give an example of even one born again Christian in all of scripture who God "un-joined" from Himself?

 

[steaver]

I freely admit that those who start out with the tradition of OSAS come to this chapter needing to avoid some details.


in Christ,

Bob

That's not Winman's testimony, and his testimony is the same as mine. We both began WITHOUT any bias for or against OSAS. Have you ever tried that? Or did you just believe what the SDA told you?

It could be that it is you who have started out with the tradition of one losing their salvation??

 

[Winman]

Can you give an example of even one born again Christian in all of scripture who God "un-joined" from Himself?

Yes, as a person is comprised of both their father and mother and cannot be separated, in the same manner when one is born again their spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit and becomes ONE spirit. This CANNOT be dissolved.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

As Bob would say, these are DETAILS he chooses to ignore that completely destroy his theory that a born again person can lose salvation.

 

[Winman]

That's not Winman's testimony, and his testimony is the same as mine. We both began WITHOUT any bias for or against OSAS. Have you ever tried that? Or did you just believe what the SDA told you?

It could be that it is you who have started out with the tradition of one losing their salvation??

Correct, I freely admit that there are many scriptures that on first glance seem to argue a saved person could lose salvation. I did not ignore these verses at all but studied them and compared them to all scripture I could find on this given subject. I have come to the conclusion that all of these verses have other possible interpretations, and there are other scriptures that clearly show a saved person cannot lose salvation. So I have come to the OSAS view.

Bob cannot deal with 1 Cor 6:17 that says a person joined to the Holy Spirit is one spirit. This is a DETAIL in scripture that completely destroys his view.

1 Jhn 3:9 is also a DETAIL that destroys his view.

But neither he nor E7 are man enough to admit these verses give their view a serious problem.

They need to explain how these verses work in their system as I and others addressed Romans 11 and other scriptures they provided as objections to OSAS. It is highly hypocritical to demand your opponent address your objections and then refuse to address our objections to their view.

Man up.

 

[evangelist-7]

Can you give an example of even one born again Christian in all of scripture who God "un-joined" from Himself?

Now I'll ask you one ...

How many times do you need to see the 15 verses that clearly say ...
One must endure in faith until the end of one's life to receive eternal life?

Ergo, no one knows about anyone's end, not even after they have died ... unless via the Spirit?

Take a deep breath, and then read this 10 times.
.

 

[DHK]

Now I'll ask you one ...

How many times do you need to see the 15 verses that clearly say ...
One must endure in faith until the end of one's life to receive eternal life?
.

There is not even one.
nada; zilch; zero; non-existent.

 

[Amy.G]

Now I'll ask you one ...

I knew you would not be able to answer my question. Actually you are not willing to because there is no example in scripture of a born again Christian being separated from God and you cannot admit you are wrong.

 

[evangelist-7]

There is not even one.
nada; zilch; zero; non-existent.

Some of your own people are shakin' their heads in disbelief,
.
and maybe even joining me in a hearty

Tanks!
.

 

[DHK]

Some of your own people are shakin' their heads in disbelief,
.
and maybe even joining me in a hearty

Tanks!
.

With all due respect:
1. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."
2. "Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God."
3. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

Of course there are many more.
Salvation is by grace through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.

You boast a lot on this forum. But salvation is not of works lest any man should boast. Salvation is by faith, not of works. If you don't accept that you cannot be saved, for salvation is a gift to be freely accepted by faith and faith alone. It is the only way of salvation that the Bible teaches.