Romans 11 disproves OSAS

[steaver]

But as for me, this blindness makes me sick to my stomach.
.

There is a cure for that, humble thyself, repent, believe, and the Holy Spirit will then have room to teach in your heart.

 

[BobRyan]

To help answer that "easy Bible question" I posed above - more "Bible details" from Romans 11... not to be ignored.

[FONT=&quot]
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 “Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Elijah tries to make the case that it is a NATION that is fallen and that this is what matters. God says what matters is INDIVIDUAL salvation within that nation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The context from Romans 11:1-5 onward explicitly addresses individual salvation as the focus.[/FONT]

who is Paul speaking about -- being "Fellow partakers" and "grafted in together"?

The lost or the saved?"

And quoted these two short verses.

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]


Doubting Thomas makes a good observation in answer to Stever

I am not sure how you can come to that conclusion, since the Gentiles whom Paul is addressing are said to be presently standing by faith. He doesn't question whether they really are or not,

An important "detail in the text" itself. Paul urges IN the text that they CONTINUE doing what they are doing OR ELSE suffer a bad consequence.

One does not insist that the LOST - should CONTINUE being lost or else suffer a bad consequence.

No where does Paul say entire Gentile nations are grafted in irrespective of belief, nor are entire Gentile nations said to be standing by faith.

Very true and when you consider that ALL THE GENTILE NATIONS were pagan idol worshipers and that only ISRAEL as a nation was worshiping the ONE TRUE God - the nonsense that the OSAS argument must create to water down this text and bend it away so that OSAS will survive it - is total mush.

What bad ideas, what bad doctrine COULD NOT thrive using such bible-avoidance bible-bending to get one's traditions to "survive the text"??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The answer is easy, but folks don't want to see it.

In Romans 11, when Paul writes of Jews 'broken off because of unbelief' (11:20), he's not talking about every Jew (or the entire Jewish nation) but the UNBELIEVING Jews. Obviously, Paul did not consider himself or other BELIEVING Jews to have been broken off because of unbelief.

Likewise, when he writes of those Gentiles who are standing BY FAITH, he's not referring to entire Gentile nations, Genitles as a whole, or every individual Gentile...he's referring to Gentile BELIEVERS (ie the ones who are actually standing by faith--11:20).

This is obvious because not all Gentiles have faith in Christ, and so they are not all collectively grafted in. It is these individual Gentile BELIEVERS (those presently standing by faith) whom Paul is warning to CONTINUE in faith and the goodness of God, or else they too will be cut off and thus share the same fate as the UNBELIEVING Jews (11:22).

Of course, folks will ignore this, and continue to repeat something about 'Jews as a whole and Gentiles as a whole!', wave their hands, and miss the real warning taught by the Apostle in this passage. (I know--I did this for years)

Excellent answers sir!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Now some are probably wondering -- "How did Doubting Thomas figure out the answer so fast??""

Let me help those who are struggling with that --

=======================================

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Individual[/FONT][FONT=&quot] - saved gentiles grafted in with individual saved Jews - "fellow partakers" in Christ.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were[/FONT][FONT=&quot]grafted in among them[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and became [/FONT][FONT=&quot]partaker with them[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the rich root of the olive tree,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Rom 11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]The OSAS argument dies here at several points.

1. It dies if the argument tries to ignore "But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles."

2. it dies in that Paul's "Graft them in again" is specific to " move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them"
3. And it dies in that the gentiles that ARE saved are being grafted in WITH THEM - with the "SOME" of the Jews that are saved. " you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them"

4. And of course it dies in that the Gentile who 'stand by your faith" is being "Warned" about being cast into the lost position of those Jews who even OSAS people admit are lost.

"thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."[/FONT]


OSAS does not survive Romans 11 once we admit that those who were cut off are lost and that "you who stand by your faith" are "saved" because you cannot warn the saved about becoming lost the way Paul does here in Romans 11 -- if you choose the tradition of OSAS over the Bible.[FONT=&quot]

Question - how many of these key salient points in Romans 11 do our OSAS brethren address?
Answer - none.

Why? "because OSAS needed these points to be ignored"??[/FONT]

---------------------------------------------

See?? it really is not all that difficult to see IF you are free to accept the Bible as it reads when you get to Romans 11. But if your preferences and traditions hold you back from just accepting the "details in the text as they read' -- well then a lot of spin-this-way and that will be needed while ducking the easy Bible question that arises from the text itself.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

Your problem Bob is that the text IS showing Paul is speaking of nations.

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Israel is the natural branches. It was God's intention to save all the Jews, but because some did not believe and bear fruit, God broke them off.

This made room for the Gentiles to be graffed in. This is when Paul took the gospel to the Gentiles. Just like the Jew, originally all Gentiles are graffed into the tree, it is God's intention to save them all.

God gives these persons time to believe and bear fruit. Those that do believe and bear fruit are left in the tree, those that do not believe are also broken off just as the Jews were.

It is not saying anyone was saved and then lost, but all of these persons have been given the opportunity to believe and be saved, those who refuse to believe and do not bear fruit are broken off and cast into the fire.

This is very similar to the analogy of rain and land given in Hebrews 6;

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

This passage speaks of persons who have heard the gospel and been enlightened and taught. They have "tasted" of salvation, but not eaten. They have been brought to the point of repentance, but have fallen away in unbelief. It is impossible to bring them to repentance again, they have been broken off.

Except in this passage these persons are compared to earth that God has nourished with rain, and dressed it. God expects this land to bring forth herbs that please him.

But if this land produces only thorns, these are pulled up and burned.

Both these passages in Romans and Hebrews are the same, they are speaking of persons exposed to the gospel and the drawing and power of the Holy Spirit, but have not believed.

 

[BobRyan]

Certainly all can agree that there is a level at which the Jewish nation comes in - but Paul keeps insisting that we look at the overriding issue of INDIVIDUAL salvation - from the very start of Romans 11.

In the opening for Romans 11 - Elijah tries to make this all about "NATION failure" and God says no - that it is about INDIVIDUAL salvation. And this is the opening context - no less.

[FONT=&quot]
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 “Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Elijah tries to make the case that it is a NATION that is fallen and that this is what matters. God says what matters is INDIVIDUAL salvation within that nation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The context from Romans 11:1-5 onward explicitly addresses individual salvation as the focus.

This is probably one of the ways that DoubtingThomas here got the answer to this question so fast.


[/FONT]
who is Paul speaking about -- being "Fellow partakers" and "grafted in together"?

The lost or the saved?"

look at these two short verses -- easy answer:

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

Your problem Bob is that the text IS showing Paul is speaking of nations.

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Israel is the natural branches.

One Israel - many branches. INDIVIDUALs are the branches which is why Paul says that the faithful saved Gentiles are grafted in "AMONG THEM" and "fellow partakers WITH THEM".

Not a bunch of Jewish nations IN and a bunch of Jewish nations OUT.

I think we can all see that.


who is Paul speaking about -- being "Fellow partakers" and "grafted in together"?

The lost or the saved?"

look at these two short verses -- easy answer:

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]



It is not "one branch" that is taken out - but "BRANCHES" so when we look at the branchES removed - the lost we see their lot compared to the saved gentiles.


[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/FONT]


Another easy clue for not bending the chapter far out into left field just to try to spare OSAS:

ALL Gentile nations at this time are PAGAN worshiping false gods by the dozens if not more - and only the NATION of Israel worships the ONE true creator God.
in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

Not an issue of a bunch of nations in or out, the issue is whether this is showing someone losing salvation or not, and I do not believe that is what this is showing.

It is showing that the gospel went to all the Jews (many branches). They were tapped in to the root (Jesus, Holy Spirit, scriptures, etc...) They were expected to feed off the root and bear fruit. Those that did not believe were broken off.

You remember Jesus said how he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel only. This is what this is talking about.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Again, every Jew was expected to feed off the root (Jesus) and produce fruit, those that didn't were broken off. It is not saying they were saved and now lost, they were NEVER saved, they NEVER believed.

This made room for the Gentiles to be graffed in. All were intended to be saved, so all were graffed in. This is when Paul went to the Gentiles.

Acts 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Note, that everything is plural.

This is what Paul is discussing in Romans 11. Now the gospel has gone to the Gentiles and they also are expected to believe and bear fruit. Those that do not believe among the Gentiles shall likewise be broken off.

 

[steaver]

Originally Posted by Doubting Thomas
The answer is easy, but folks don't want to see it.

In Romans 11, when Paul writes of Jews 'broken off because of unbelief' (11:20), he's not talking about every Jew (or the entire Jewish nation) but the UNBELIEVING Jews. Obviously, Paul did not consider himself or other BELIEVING Jews to have been broken off because of unbelief.

Likewise, when he writes of those Gentiles who are standing BY FAITH, he's not referring to entire Gentile nations, Genitles as a whole, or every individual Gentile...he's referring to Gentile BELIEVERS (ie the ones who are actually standing by faith--11:20).

This is obvious because not all Gentiles have faith in Christ, and so they are not all collectively grafted in. It is these individual Gentile BELIEVERS (those presently standing by faith) whom Paul is warning to CONTINUE in faith and the goodness of God, or else they too will be cut off and thus share the same fate as the UNBELIEVING Jews (11:22).

Of course, folks will ignore this, and continue to repeat something about 'Jews as a whole and Gentiles as a whole!', wave their hands, and miss the real warning taught by the Apostle in this passage. (I know--I did this for years)

Thomas' misses one key point about Israel, at no time ever did every one who was an Israelite believe God. It is not as if they all individually believed and stopped believing at some point. Those who NEVER believed are those who have been cut off for unbelief.

Therefore, just as God chose Israel, and many are cut off for unbelief, so it is with God choosing the Gentiles, and many be cut off for unbelief.

So yes, the subject of Romans 11 is God choosing people groups and then cutting off those who REMAIN in unbelief. It 's not that they all believed and then changed their minds.

 

[evangelist-7]

Romans 13:
11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep;
for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness,
and let us put on the armor of light.
13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust,
not in strife and envy.
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Sorry, but thous don't have it yet.

Easy way out ... as always ... just ignore Paul, and stick with yer tradition.
.

 

[Winman]

Romans 13:
11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep;
for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness,
and let us put on the armor of light.
13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust,
not in strife and envy.
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Sorry, but thous don't have it yet.

Easy way out ... as always ... just ignore Paul, and stick with yer tradition.
.

This passage of scripture hardly proves a person can lose salvation, it can actually argue against it. It says our salvation is now nearer than when we first believed. It is not implying a believer can be lost, it is implying the very opposite.

 

[Winman]

Thomas' misses one key point about Israel, at no time ever did every one who was an Israelite believe God. It is not as if they all individually believed and stopped believing at some point. Those who NEVER believed are those who have been cut off for unbelief.

Therefore, just as God chose Israel, and many are cut off for unbelief, so it is with God choosing the Gentiles, and many be cut off for unbelief.

So yes, the subject of Romans 11 is God choosing people groups and then cutting off those who REMAIN in unbelief. It 's not that they all believed and then changed their minds.

Absolutely correct. For those who believe this passage is teaching that a believer can lose salvation, you would have to believe 100% of the Jews were saved believers originally. We know this was never true.

 

[evangelist-7]

This passage of scripture hardly proves a person can lose salvation ...

The point is ... thou do not have eternal life yet.
So, all your nonsense about eternal life being eternal is just that ... nonsense.

Just because polar bears don't need to fly south in winter to be saved
doesn't mean you don't need to practice righteousness to be saved.

Wanna see the verses saying you need to practice righteousness to be righteous?
No, didn't think so.

Just came across a hidden gem ...

Tertius 14:
16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil;
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. (*)

Steaver needs this to be translated: practice righteousness to be accepted by God and be in the kingdom.

(*) Romans 16:22
.

 

[steaver]

1Jo5:13 - "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God".

Present tense.

 

[steaver]

Wanna see the verses saying you need to practice righteousness to be righteous?
No, didn't think so.
.

1Jo3:9 - "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God".

Guess that pretty much destroys your man made tradition of one losing salvation.

 

[steaver]

This is such a clear statement from God concerning ALL those Born of God Christians. It shows there is absolutely NO sub-group within a group, they are ALL Born of God and they ALL remain saved....

1Jo3:9 - "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God".

I added some emphasis and some color to help those having trouble with this doctrine from God, so they might understand.

 

[Winman]

The point is ... thou do not have eternal life yet.
So, all your nonsense about eternal life being eternal is just that ... nonsense.

Just because polar bears don't need to fly south in winter to be saved
doesn't mean you don't need to practice righteousness to be saved.

Wanna see the verses saying you need to practice righteousness to be righteous?
No, didn't think so.
.

Oh, you want to see scripture that says we have eternal life now? OK.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jesus said any person who believes on him "hath" everlasting life. That is present tense. He also said that person has "passed" from death to life. That is past tense.

1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John said we are "now" the sons of God.

1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John not only said "now" we are the sons of God, but he also said the person truly born of God cannot sin. This cannot mean that Christians cannot commit individual acts of sin, for it is obvious that all Christians sin. No, this can only mean that a Christian cannot "continually" sin, that is, no real Christian born of God can fall away in unbelief and be lost. Oh, they may have moments of doubt and despair, but they will never truly lose their faith and become true unbelievers.

The scriptures say a person who is saved is "joined" to the Holy Spirit to become one spirit.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

The scriptures say a husband and wife shall come together and be one flesh. This is their children. The child is neither the father, nor the mother, but partakes of both and is an individual, a new creation.

Likewise, when you trust Christ your spirit is washed and joined to the Holy Spirit to become one spirit. You are not your old man, and you are not the Holy Spirit, but you partake in both. You are a new man, a new creation. The Holy Spirit is this "seed" that remains in a Christian in 1 Jhn 3:9. The Holy Spirit cannot sin, he cannot fall away in unbelief, and neither can the person that is born of God.

 

[steaver]

Oh, you want to see scripture that says we have eternal life now? OK.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jesus said any person who believes on him "hath" everlasting life. That is present tense. He also said that person has "passed" from death to life. That is past tense.

1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John said we are "now" the sons of God.

1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John not only said "now" we are the sons of God, but he also said the person truly born of God cannot sin. This cannot mean that Christians cannot commit individual acts of sin, for it is obvious that all Christians sin. No, this can only mean that a Christian cannot "continually" sin, that is, no real Christian born of God can fall away in unbelief and be lost. Oh, they may have moments of doubt and despair, but they will never truly lose their faith and become true unbelievers.

The scriptures say a person who is saved is "joined" to the Holy Spirit to become one spirit.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

The scriptures say a husband and wife shall come together and be one flesh. This is their children. The child is neither the father, nor the mother, but partakes of both and is an individual, a new creation.

Likewise, when you trust Christ your spirit is washed and joined to the Holy Spirit to become one spirit. You are not your old man, and you are not the Holy Spirit, but you partake in both. You are a new man, a new creation. Thw Holy Spirit is this "seed" that remains in a Christian in 1 Jhn 3:9. The Holy Spirit cannot sin, he cannot fall away in unbelief, and neither can the person that is born of God.

Excellent points! One must totally ignore scripture if one is to cling to the man made tradition of losing salvation. :thumbsup:

 

[BobRyan]

Not an issue of a bunch of nations in or out, the issue is whether this is showing someone losing salvation or not,

If the text is dealing at all with individual salvation as we saw in vs 1-4 then the OSAS argument ends.

It is showing that the gospel went to all the Jews (many branches).

Here you refer to them as individuals not "many nations". I think we all see that.

SO then in the case of the saved individuals --
who is Paul speaking about -- being "Fellow partakers" and "grafted in together"?

The lost or the saved?"

look at these two short verses -- easy answer:

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]



It is not "one branch" that is taken out - but "BRANCHES" so when we look at the branchES removed - the lost we see their lot compared to the saved gentiles.


[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/FONT]


ALL Gentile nations at this time are PAGAN worshiping false gods by the dozens if not more - and only the NATION of Israel worships the ONE true creator God.
in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

If the text is dealing at all with individual salvation as we saw in vs 1-4 then the OSAS argument ends.

Here you refer to them as individuals not "many nations". I think we all see that.

SO then in the case of the saved individuals --
who is Paul speaking about -- being "Fellow partakers" and "grafted in together"?

The lost or the saved?"

look at these two short verses -- easy answer:

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]



It is not "one branch" that is taken out - but "BRANCHES" so when we look at the branchES removed - the lost we see their lot compared to the saved gentiles.


[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/FONT]


ALL Gentile nations at this time are PAGAN worshiping false gods by the dozens if not more - and only the NATION of Israel worships the ONE true creator God.
in Christ,

Bob

OK, you are interpreting those who are partakers of the root as saved, I am not. I do not believe every branch is saved, I believe the branches are individual Jews that comprise a nation who have opportunity to be saved, they are exposed to the word of God and the influence of the Spirit. Those who grow off the root and produce fruit (believe) are allowed to remain, those that do not believe are broken off. This allows all the Gentiles to be graffed in. Now these persons are hearing the word of God as the Jews did for thousands of years. They are expected to believe and produce fruit. If they do not, they likewise will be broken off.

I really do not believe you are having trouble understanding my view. I think you do.

A parable of Jesus that reflects this view is the parable of the fig tree.

Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

This is similar to Romans 11. It shows a man who planted a fig tree in his vineyard. After three years he expected it to bear fruit. When it did not, he decided it would be best to cut it down. This tree did not bear figs and then stop bearing figs, it NEVER bear figs. It is speaking of persons who NEVER believed, not persons who once believed and then quit believing.

His dresser argued for one more year, he would dig around and fertilize it. If after one more year it did not produce fruit, he would cut it down.

This is what Romans 11 is teaching. The word of God, the prophets, teachers, and Christ himself were sent to the Jews. They were all expected to believe and produce fruit. Those that did not were broken off.

This allowed all the Gentiles to be graffed in. This is the gospel going to all the Gentiles through Paul and many of the other apostles who went to the Gentiles. I do not know if it is true, but I have heard that Thomas went to India for example.

Anyway, it is not saying all these Gentiles are saved, but only that they partake of the Root, which is the holy scriptures, the preaching of the gospel, the influence of the Holy Spirit, etc... They also are expected to believe and produce fruit. Those that do will remain, those that do not believe will likewise be broken off.

But it is not talking about persons being saved and then lost as you are trying to prove.

Plus, you have to deal with the scriptures that show we are saved NOW, and that we cannot sin because our seed (the Holy Spirit) remains in us.

YOU need to deal with those scriptures.