Romans 11 disproves OSAS

[BobRyan]

Correct, I freely admit that there are many scriptures that on first glance seem to argue a saved person could lose salvation.

One reason that Doubting Thomas, E-7 and I admit to the problem that OSAS faces in Romans 11 - is that the chapter starts off with the idea of a "remnant of the saved' inside of the nation of Israel in rebellion.

Elijah tries to focus only on national failure - but God reminds him of the true more significant picture - of individuals (branches that remain) that are saved.

Paul says "IN THE SAME way at the PRESENT time" there is a remnant - a group of saved Jews.

And of course then we have vs 16-17 talking about the saved jews - the "holy branches" and the saved gentiles as "Fellow partakers" in the olive tree.

Paul says that this remains the case as long as they choose to persevere - but then Paul contrasts those saved "holy branches" (as Paul calls them) to those who are "removed for unbelief" and Paul warns the saved 'holy branches" to persevere or they will suffer the same removal.

These Bible details are easy for E-7 and D.T. and I to accept because we do not come to the chapter with the prior bias of OSAS "needing" to ignore the Bible details in the chapter that do not fit OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

That's not Winman's testimony, and his testimony is the same as mine. We both began WITHOUT any bias for or against OSAS. ?

I think you and Winman and I all know that one who does not believe in OSAS would never come to Romans 11 and spin around saying "oops! Look at Romans 11!! I guess OSAS is correct after all".

This is a point that is incredibly obvious - even to those who do accept OSAS prior to coming to the Romans 11 chapter and being confronted with the details.

Those who accept OSAS do so "in spite of Romans 11" - and not "because of it".

Notice how repeating the "inconvenient details" in the chapter about the "Remnant in Israel" and the "holy branches" and "you stand by your faith" get brushed aside by those who "need' to play down those texts so that OSAS will survive it.

For the OSAS group the challenge in Romans 11 is of the form "how to get OSAS to survive it" - and certainly not "I did not believe in OSAS until I read Romans 11".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

I think you and Winman and I all know that one who does not believe in OSAS would never come to Romans 11 and spin around saying "oops! Look at Romans 11!! I guess OSAS is correct after all".

This is a point that is incredibly obvious - even to those who do accept OSAS prior to coming to the Romans 11 chapter and being confronted with the details.

Those who accept OSAS do so "in spite of Romans 11" - and not "because of it".

Notice how repeating the "inconvenient details" in the chapter about the "Remnant in Israel" and the "holy branches" and "you stand by your faith" get brushed aside by those who "need' to play down those texts so that OSAS will survive it.

For the OSAS group the challenge in Romans 11 is of the form "how to get OSAS to survive it" - and certainly not "I did not believe in OSAS until I read Romans 11".

in Christ,

Bob

Those who accept OSAS do so because the Bible teach it. To use Romans 11 to try and teach otherwise is to do injustice to the Scriptures. These Scriptures are speaking of the nation of Israel (chapters 9-11), and no serious Bible student is going to accept these verses jerked out of that context and apply them to the doctrine of eternal security. That is absurd!
If that is all you have you have miserably failed and are without hope.
It appears that every reference you have ever used on this topic is a reference that is totally out of its context or one where you have had to redefine words to mean something other than what the Bible teaches. It is a pitiful situation to be in.

In summary, those who do not believe in eternal security have a deficit in their knowledge and understanding of the true meaning of salvation. It boils down to the simplicity of the statement: "They don't know what it means to be saved," and the consequences of that salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

Those who accept OSAS do so because the Bible teach it. To use Romans 11 to try and teach otherwise is to do injustice to the Scriptures.

The fact that so much "Bible avoidance" is necessary for OSAS when it comes to the very details in Romans 11 that point to "individual salvation" in both the Jewish group (The remnant of Rom 11:1-4) and the Gentiles ("you stand by your faith" )-- makes it clear that doing justice to the Bible demands that we set the tradition of OSAS aside when reading the chapter.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

The fact that so much "Bible avoidance" is necessary for OSAS when it comes to the very details in Romans 11 that point to "individual salvation" in both the Jewish group (The remnant of Rom 11:1-4) and the Gentiles ("you stand by your faith" )-- makes it clear that doing justice to the Bible demands that we set the tradition of OSAS aside when reading the chapter.

in Christ,

Bob

I stand by faith.
Therefore being justified by faith I have peace with God.

Apparently you don't have that. That is truly sad.

 

[BobRyan]

These Bible details in Romans 11 - must be "carefully skimmed over and ignored" to get OSAS to survive the text of Romans 11.

=====================================

#1. Paul speaks to individual salvation at the very start saying that "in the same way there is a REMNANT in Israel" today that is saved. Individual salvation vs national failure WITHIN the Jewish nation is the starting context in Romans 11. Paul declares himself to be in that remnant of Israel that remains today - saved. Saved individuals.

[FONT=&quot]1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! ForI too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 “Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Elijah tries to make the case that it is a NATION that is fallen and that this is what matters. God says what matters is INDIVIDUAL salvation within that nation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The context from Romans 11:1-5 onward explicitly addresses individual salvation as the focus.[/FONT]

Paul declares himself to be in that "remnant" of saved jews that remains today - even amid the nation in rebellion.
[FONT=&quot]"God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite,[/FONT]"
[FONT=&quot]4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant[/FONT]


More Bible "details" in Romans 11 that the OSAS POV "needs to ignore" to survive this Bible detail - in post after post.



Saved "holy branches" remain from among both Jews and Gentiles "fellow partakers" in the olive tree.

[FONT=&quot]16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]

Some Gentiles are saved and SOME Jews are saved according to Romans 11.

[FONT=&quot]13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

"Save some of them" is an obvious reference not to "some Jewish nations" but to "some Jews in the Jewish nation". Once again individual salvation is said to be the priority in Romans 11 in vs 14 just as in vs 1-4.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]SOME Jews were broken off for "unbelief" those who believe are called "the remnant" in Romans 11:1-4
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

I know what you are thinking "why don't you just quote those last 4 verses from Romans 11 because they alone make the entire case for the end of OSAS crystal clear sola-scriptura - ?" --


[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

I suppose I could do that.

in Christ,

Bob
[/FONT]

 

[DHK]

#1. Paul speaks to individual salvation at the very start saying that "in the same way there is a REMNANT in Israel" today that is saved. Individual salvation vs national failure WITHIN the Jewish nation is the starting context in Romans 11. Paul declares himself to be in that remnant of Israel that remains today - saved. Saved individuals.

The remnant is a nation. Near the end of the Tribulation then, as a nation, will look to Him as their Messiah. God is dealing with the nation of Israel. It will be a fulfillment of prophecy. He will come in power and glory and defeat the enemies of Israel and they will turn to him, accept Him as their Messiah, and set up His Kingdom as promised in the OT Scriptures. These scriptures speak about God's dealings with the nation of Israel, from whom we partake of some of their blessings.
You cannot derive or deny OSAS from this scripture.
It is entirely out of context. And yet you do over and over again.
No one here takes you seriously when you butcher the Scriptures like this.

 

[evangelist-7]

I stand by faith.
Therefore being justified by faith I have peace with God.
Apparently you don't have that. That is truly sad.

Where's Rolf when we really need da cute little guy?

All kinds of people in all kinds of religions, cults, sects, etc. think they have peace with God.

Otherwise, they'd be searching to fill the void in their spirit man.

Except for man and his free will, Satan really is King.

Almighty God has decreed it to be this way, and He basically stands by observing
the spiritual battle in the heavenlies between His angels and Satan's demons.
And, our free will has an enormous part to play in this also.
.

 

[evangelist-7]

I knew you would not be able to answer my question. Actually you are not willing to because there is no example in scripture of a born again Christian being separated from God and you cannot admit you are wrong.

There doesn't have to be a CLEAR example in Scripture.
There aren't even CLEAR Scriptures about some things!

You are supposed to heed the many dozens of warnings ...
instead of searching for ways to ignore them and continue with OSAS.
.

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 “Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.[/FONT]

The remnant is a nation.

Just not in the actual Bible.

In vs one Paul is not "a nation". [FONT=&quot]God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite,[/FONT]

In vs 2-4 the 7000 within the nation of Israel were not "a nation of 7000". Such odd eisegesis does not work in the actual Bible.

In vs 5 "IN the SAME WAY" as the 7000 INDIVIDUALS are what was "left" of God's faithful servants in Israel after the nation went into rebellion - so "IN the SAME WAY" there is a remnant (what is left over) of God's people within that rebellious group - the Jewish nation.

[FONT=&quot]5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.[/FONT]

Impossible to miss this detail or to wrench/bend it away so that it does not affect OSAS.

The more we stick with the actual words IN Romans 11 - the worse for OSAS.

Paul does not say "some day the future there WILL be a remnant" as some would like to bend this text.

He says that these Christian Jews already exist, this remnant withing a rebellious nation already exist - and in vs 1 - HE is one of them.

so much for OSAS' need to turn a blind eye to yet another obvious detail in the chapter of Romans 11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Where's Rolf when we really need da cute little guy?

All kinds of people in all kinds of religions, cults, sects, etc. think they have peace with God.

The wicked are as the troubled sea who cast up mire and dirt.
Peace, peace! But there is no peace to the wicked, saith my God.

My God gives me perfect peace, peace that passes all understanding, a peace that will never be taken away. Do you understand that kind of peace?

Otherwise, they'd be searching to fill the void in their spirit man.

Unsaved man usually do search for something to fill the void that is in their lives.

Except for man and his free will, Satan really is King.

Satan is the god of this world.
Humanism teaches that within each person there is a god.

Almighty God has decreed it to be this way, and He basically stands by observing
the spiritual battle in the heavenlies between His angels and Satan's demons.
And, our free will has an enormous part to play in this also.

.

Choose you this day whom you will serve!
It is your choice.

 

[DHK]

Paul does not say "some day the future there WILL be a remnant" as some would like to bend this text.

He says that these Christian Jews already exist, this remnant withing a rebellious nation already exist - and in vs 1 - HE is one of them.

Paul was simply referring to His Jewish heritage. He was not part of that remnant. He no longer was a part of the nation of Israel. He delineates in 1Cor.10 the three groups that now exist:

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
--Here exist three groups of people: Jews, Gentiles, and the Church of God.
Which group do you think Paul associated himself with? The Jews? Hardly!!
He was a believer in Christ. He had disassociated himself from all Jewish beliefs. His heart was to win his brethren to the Lord. He had a Jewish heritage. But he was a Christian who had forsaken his Jewish beliefs. That is the way it had to be. (He couldn't change the color of his skin or who his parents were).

There is a remnant, even today. Someday that remnant will, as a nation, turn to God. This is what Paul says in that very chapter!

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
--The entire nation will be saved.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

He no longer was a part of the nation of Israel.

That's not what Paul said.

Romans 11, NASB
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite [emphasis added], a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. [emphasis added]
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.​

 

[DHK]

That's not what Paul said.

Romans 11, NASB
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite [emphasis added], a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. [emphasis added]
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.​

Understand what he both means and says.
One cannot be a Muslim and a Christian at the same time, though he can be an Arab and a Christian at the same time.
One cannot be a Hindu and a Christian at the same time though he can be Hindustani (E. Indian) and a Christian at the same time.
One cannot be an Israelite and a Christian at the same time, though he can be of the nation of Israel and a Christian at the same time.

One cannot adhere to two religions at one and the same time, especially if one of those is Christianity.
Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me."
Was he telling the truth, or was he lying?

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 “Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.[/FONT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
The remnant is a nation.

Just not in the actual Bible.

In vs one Paul is not "a nation". [FONT=&quot]God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite,[/FONT]

In vs 2-4 the 7000 within the nation of Israel were not "a nation of 7000". Such odd eisegesis does not work in the actual Bible.

In vs 5 "IN the SAME WAY" as the 7000 INDIVIDUALS are what was "left" of God's faithful servants in Israel after the nation went into rebellion - so "IN the SAME WAY" there is a remnant (what is left over) of God's people within that rebellious group - the Jewish nation.

[FONT=&quot]5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.[/FONT]

Paul was simply referring to His Jewish heritage. He was not part of that remnant. He no longer was a part of the nation of Israel.

Interesting story - but not in the actual Bible.

Rom 11:1
[FONT=&quot]God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite,[/FONT]

He calls the non-Christian Jews "Brethren and Fathers"

Acts 22
“Brethren and fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you.”

3 `I, indeed, am a man, a Jew, having been born in Tarsus of Cilicia, and brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, having been taught according to the exactitude of a law of the fathers, being zealous of God, as all ye are to-day.


12 “A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13 He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him.
14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth.


Acts 23
23 Then Paul, looking earnestly at the council, said, “Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.”


4 And those who stood by said, “Do you revile God’s high priest?”
5 Then Paul said, “I did not know, brethren, that he was the high priest; for it is written, ‘You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.’”
6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!”
7 And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and the assembly was divided.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

He is asked to speak by non-Christian Jews when he enters a Synagogue (Acts 13).

14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, “Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.” 16 Then Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, “Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen: 17 The God of this people Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He brought them out of it.

His claim is not "I WAS an Israelite" - but "I AM an Israelite" in Romans 11.


Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood

Acts 21
39 Paul answered, “I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no ordinary city. Please let me speak to the people.”


Paul always presented himself as a Jewish Christian - a Jewish believer - not a gentile Christian. Galatians 2 comes to mind when Paul is correcting Peter on this subject. Paul argues that the Jewish Christians should not be unkind or rude to gentile Christians.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
--The entire nation will be saved.

In Romans 2, 9 and 11 Paul argues that Jews and Gentiles are in the one spiritual body - called "Israel" and called "Jew".

 

[steaver]

I think you and Winman and I all know that one who does not believe in OSAS would never come to Romans 11 and spin around saying "oops! Look at Romans 11!! I guess OSAS is correct after all".

This is a point that is incredibly obvious - even to those who do accept OSAS prior to coming to the Romans 11 chapter and being confronted with the details.

Those who accept OSAS do so "in spite of Romans 11" - and not "because of it".

Notice how repeating the "inconvenient details" in the chapter about the "Remnant in Israel" and the "holy branches" and "you stand by your faith" get brushed aside by those who "need' to play down those texts so that OSAS will survive it.

For the OSAS group the challenge in Romans 11 is of the form "how to get OSAS to survive it" - and certainly not "I did not believe in OSAS until I read Romans 11".

in Christ,

Bob

So do you fear losing your salvation Bob?

 

[steaver]

All kinds of people in all kinds of religions, cults, sects, etc. think they have peace with God.

.
.

Do you think you have peace with God E7?