Salvation: A Gift or a Reward?

[marke]

Your illustration is entirely wrong. God gives out an invitation to everyone, but no one wants to come. Then God grabs His elect by the hand and drags them to the party. 'Then the Master said to the servant, "Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in!"' (Luke 14:23).
Steve

So God created sin and evil for His own glorification and praise, allowed men to fall into complete degeneration after making everything "very good" in the beginning, and makes it necessary for Jesus to die for the sins of a few, and then simply makes men saved for no reason other than His good pleasure?

Why didn't God just make men saved to begin with? He could have let Jesus off the hook when He prayed, "If it be possible, let this cup pass from me." He could have banned sin, the serpent, and the tree of life from the Garden of Eden before the whole sin fiasco developed, and that would have eliminated thousands of years of the endless suffering and deaths of billions of people.

But you believe God wanted all of this suffering to take place, even delighting in the fact that billions of those He made hopeless sinners must now be fried in Hell forever and ever for being the sinners they were made by God to be? Something smells fishy here and I don't think it is the Bible.

 

[preacher4truth]

Who are you referring to here. Not me. Not anyone I know. There are no cults here. I don't know who you are addressing. There is no cooperation in salvation. Let's be clear about that!

Agreed with the bolded and that is exactly what I am saying.

Go read Arminian belief afresh. It is only after cooperation that salvation is gained, rendering it a reward, not a gift. This is nothing new.

Try wikepedia as a start, as it documents the 'cooperation' part in a search of synergism.

There is more, but the basis of Armininan teaching falls under cooperation, it's the fundamental belief of their teachings.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Agreed with the bolded and that is exactly what I am saying.

Go read Arminian belief afresh. It is only after cooperation that salvation is gained, rendering it a reward, not a gift. This is nothing new.

Try wikepedia as a start, as it documents the 'cooperation' part in a search of synergism.

There is more, but the basis of Armininan teaching falls under cooperation, it's the fundamental belief of their teachings.

DHK, he is saying that when we use our freewill to accept the gift of salvation, that we are 'cooperating" with God and that makes it a reward.

In other words, we aint really saved if we think we have to accept the gift of salvation.

He even stated that we cant get saved by praying for salvation????uh???

I reckon he thinks salvation just 'comes upon' us as we sleep without our knowledge.

What drivel

John

 

[DHK]

Agreed with the bolded and that is exactly what I am saying.

Go read Arminian belief afresh. It is only after cooperation that salvation is gained, rendering it a reward, not a gift. This is nothing new.

Try wikepedia as a start, as it documents the 'cooperation' part in a search of synergism.

There is more, but the basis of Armininan teaching falls under cooperation, it's the fundamental belief of their teachings.

I don't need to do that because I am not an Arminian.
Define Arminian. Who on the board, strictly speaking is Arminian?
Arminians believe they can lose their salvation.
How many here believe that? There may be some, but not many.
I don't know of any here that believe all the points of Arminianism, but I know plenty that believe all the points of Calvinism.

 

[preacher4truth]

I don't need to do that because I am not an Arminian.
Define Arminian. Who on the board, strictly speaking is Arminian?
Arminians believe they can lose their salvation.
How many here believe that? There may be some, but not many.
I don't know of any here that believe all the points of Arminianism, but I know plenty that believe all the points of Calvinism.

It doesn't matter if one is strictly Arm or not DHK. That's not the point.

The fact remains, if ANY person believes they have 'received' salvation due to 'cooperation' they have rendered the gift a reward, no matter how they brand their theology. I was clear with this in the OP.

 

[marke]

Agreed with the bolded and that is exactly what I am saying.
Go read Arminian belief afresh. It is only after cooperation that salvation is gained, rendering it a reward, not a gift. This is nothing new.
Try wikepedia as a start, as it documents the 'cooperation' part in a search of synergism.
There is more, but the basis of Armininan teaching falls under cooperation, it's the fundamental belief of their teachings.

You can call it cooperation if you like. See here where God encourages the cooperation also:

"Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat of the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." (Isa. 1:16-20).

We should encourage all men to cooperate with the Lord (like encouraged here in Isa.) when seeking Him for salvation.

 

[seekingthetruth]

It doesn't matter if one is strictly Arm or not DHK. That's not the point.

The fact remains, if ANY person believes they have 'received' salvation due to 'cooperation' they have rendered the gift a reward, no matter how they brand their theology. I was clear with this in the OP.

You didnt say "any person" in your OP, You said "arminians". I am not an arminian but I know that by "arminian" you mean everybody that is not Dog.

I am deeply offended that you question my salvation simply because i chose to accept it.

You should be repremanded and this thread should be closed because your sole purpose is to demonize Non-Cals, and question their salvation, which is against the rules of the BB.

John

 

[psalms109:31]

Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.

Ezekiel 33:
12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ 13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done.

Romans 4:
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[Psalm 32:1,2]

The cost of our sin is death, how can we be rewarded for something we did not do. We sinned we die with Christ we live a new life through Him. The only payment we can pay is death and Jesus paid it. All we can do is trust in Him and His word that He will do what He says He will do.

Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[Or is from faith to faith] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[Hab. 2:4]

I will never see my salvation as a reward because it is Christ who suffered in my place for my salvation.

 

[preacher4truth]

You didnt say "any person" in your OP, You said "arminians". I am not an arminian but I know that by "arminian" you mean everybody that is not Dog.

I am deeply offended that you question my salvation simply because i chose to accept it.

You should be repremanded and this thread should be closed because your sole purpose is to demonize Non-Cals, and question their salvation, which is against the rules of the BB.

John

Go read the OP. I included Arms and non-cals who believe the same. Simmer and go read it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't need to do that because I am not an Arminian.
Define Arminian. Who on the board, strictly speaking is Arminian?
Arminians believe they can lose their salvation.
How many here believe that? There may be some, but not many.
I don't know of any here that believe all the points of Arminianism, but I know plenty that believe all the points of Calvinism.

:laugh: & your point is :laugh:

 

[preacher4truth]

You can call it cooperation if you like. See here where God encourages the cooperation also:

"Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat of the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." (Isa. 1:16-20).

We should encourage all men to cooperate with the Lord (like encouraged here in Isa.) when seeking Him for salvation.

None can do the above without God. Salvation is all of God. ALL.

Satan hopes that others will cooperate and say a prayer, thinking they'll go to heaven so he can watch them burn in hell.

Again, salvation is all of God and 0% man.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Go read the OP. I included Arms and non-cals who believe the same. Simmer and go read it.

Let me repost your own inflammatory words so you can read them:

"One specific theology, and other nominal belief systems that make this gift a reward is found within the teachings of Arminian theology and among some non-Calvinist theologies.

Arminian theology teaches a cooperative salvation, that is, that man cooperates with God, then chooses salvation, and then is rewarded salvation. They would call it gifted, but the actual teaching denies this. "

Looks to me like you included just about everybody except Dogs.

Ok, preacher, you tell me who it doesnt include.

Which non-cals dont treat salvation as a reward?

If you are not talking about every non-cal, then tell me, which non-cals do you exclude?

John

 

[matt wade]

None can do the above without God. Salvation is all of God. ALL.

Satan hopes that others will cooperate and say a prayer, thinking they'll go to heaven so he can watch them burn in hell.

Again, salvation is all of God and 0% man.

Satan hopes that people will sit back and get a false sense of security because they think they are specially chosen by God. Jesus would rather you willingly choose him and serve him faithfully than be a prideful member of an elite group.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Let me repost your own inflammatory words so you can read them:

"One specific theology, and other nominal belief systems that make this gift a reward is found within the teachings of Arminian theology and among some non-Calvinist theologies.

Arminian theology teaches a cooperative salvation, that is, that man cooperates with God, then chooses salvation, and then is rewarded salvation. They would call it gifted, but the actual teaching denies this. "

Looks to me like you included just about everybody except Dogs.

Ok, preacher, you tell me who it doesnt include.

Which non-cals dont treat salvation as a reward?

If you are not talking about every non-cal, then tell me, which non-cals do you exclude?

John

All Baptists (except Reformed) believe that we must chose to be saved, so you are indeed talking about all of us non-cals on the BB.

And that is offensive

John

 

[preacher4truth]

Let me repost your own inflammatory words so you can read them:

"One specific theology, and other nominal belief systems that make this gift a reward is found within the teachings of Arminian theology and among some non-Calvinist theologies.

Arminian theology teaches a cooperative salvation, that is, that man cooperates with God, then chooses salvation, and then is rewarded salvation. They would call it gifted, but the actual teaching denies this. "

Looks to me like you included just about everybody except Dogs.

Ok, preacher, you tell me who it doesnt include.

Which non-cals dont treat salvation as a reward?

If you are not talking about every non-cal, then tell me, which non-cals do you exclude?

John

I exclude the non-cals that believe salvation isn't given for choosing, isn't a reward for a decision, nor for cooperation with God, and agree salvation is solely of God.

Or, for those who know it is a gift, not a reward.

In other words, not for those who state it is all of God, but only for those who know and believe it is all of God, independent of man.

Don't like the truth of this? Tough. I couldn't care less. I'll preach the truth if everyone in this world turn on me.

 

[seekingthetruth]

I exclude the non-cals that believe salvation isn't given for choosing, isn't a reward for a decision, nor for cooperation with God, and agree salvation is solely of God.

Or, for those who know it is a gift, not a reward.

In other words, not for those who state it is all of God, but only for those who know and believe it is all of God, independent of man.

Specifically who? What churches?

All Baptists (except Reformed) believe we have a freewill and a choice.

Are you questioning the salvation of all Baptists (except Reformed) because they believe in freewill?

John

 

[preacher4truth]

Specifically who? What churches?

All Baptists (except Reformed) believe we have a freewill and a choice.

Are you questioning the salvation of all Baptists (except Reformed) because they believe in freewill?

John

I could name some churches here.

We don't have a freewill.

Have you studied this out, ('freewill') or are you still traveling on assumptions of freewill being true?

I was once where you are, yet man in his lost state does not have freewill spiritually.

Just because you can order a #3 versus a #8 at Burger King doesn't mean a lost person has the ability to choose, and preaching that choosing Christ = saved is to preach a reward for doing, and is not preaching the gift of salvation.

 

[seekingthetruth]

I could name some churches here.

We don't have a freewill.

Have you studied this out, ('freewill') or are you still traveling on assumptions of freewill being true?

I was once where you are, yet man in his lost state does not have freewill spiritually.

Just because you can order a #3 versus a #8 at Burger King doesn't mean a lost person has the ability to choose, and preaching that choosing Christ = saved is to preach a reward for doing, and is not preaching the gift of salvation.

Straight from Satan^

Satan doesnt want us to believe we have a freewill, and you are helping his cause.

John

 

[preacher4truth]

Straight from Satan^

Satan doesnt want us to believe we have a freewill, and you are helping his cause.

John

No, Satan wants you to think you do, so that salvation lies within your choice, and, that at any moment all one has to do is 'choose' and 'heaven is theirs' and "they shall be as gods."

So I ask again, what have you studied about freewill?

I'd venture to say you haven't, and are travelling on assumption to date.

 

[DHK]

It doesn't matter if one is strictly Arm or not DHK. That's not the point.

It does matter. Don't slanderously label those who are not Arminian as Arminian. Drop the title. Just because a person is not a Calvinist does not mean he is Arminian. That is slanderous. It is a false accusation. So, yes, it does matter.

The fact remains, if ANY person believes they have 'received' salvation due to 'cooperation' they have rendered the gift a reward, no matter how they brand their theology. I was clear with this in the OP.

Those that cooperate with God are the COC, the RCC, etc. They believe in things like baptismal regeneration, works-based salvation.
There is no one here like that.

Faith is not a work. Even Jesus taught that. Paul taught it clearly in Romans 4:3-5. You need to study that passage.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
Does this verse mean anything to you?
Salvation is dependent upon the believer receiving the gift of God that is offered him. There is no salvation outside of accepting that gift by faith. Or have you dismissed sola fide from your theology.