Salvation: A Gift or a Reward?

[psalms109:31]

Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous. The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing.

C.H Spurgeon

A will is moved by our free agency. A will does what it is taught to do, it doesn't make choices, but other parts of our soul directs our will.

We must come to a point and say not my will but your will our Fathers in heaven to be done, that His will is revealed to us by His word.

 

[12strings]

All Baptists (except Reformed) believe that we must chose to be saved, so you are indeed talking about all of us non-cals on the BB.

And that is offensive

John

I thought I should step in and correct you here...Reformed baptists DO believe that we must chose to be saved. Primitive Baptists & Hyper-Calvinists do not. I don't know what P4T would say to this, but most reformed baptists would say you do have to believe in Repent & Believe in Christ to be saved.

Thanks,
-Andy

 

[seekingthetruth]

No, Satan wants you to think you do, so that salvation lies within your choice, and, that at any moment all one has to do is 'choose' and 'heaven is theirs' and "they shall be as gods."

So I ask again, what have you studied about freewill?

I'd venture to say you haven't, and are travelling on assumption to date.

The entire Bible is about God requiring men to make choices.

Of course I have studied the Bible for many years.

Why do you Dogs always resort to claiming that anyone that disagrees with you must be ignorant?

Lets, see? ignorance or pride? I'll take ignorance, why, because an ignorant person is ripe for learning....but a prideful person like you thinks they already have all the answers and have no use for further learning,.....even when you are wrong.

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

I thought I should step in and correct you here...Reformed baptists DO believe that we must chose to be saved. Primitive Baptists & Hyper-Calvinists do not. I don't know what P4T would say to this, but most reformed baptists would say you do have to believe in Repent & Believe in Christ to be saved.

Thanks,
-Andy

you are the first Calvinist on this board that i have seen that believes this.

If you believe that we have a choice, then what makes you a Calvinist?

John

 

[preacher4truth]

The entire Bible is about God requiring men to make choices.

Of course I have studied the Bible for many years.

Why do you Dogs always resort to claiming that anyone that disagrees with you must be ignorant?

Lets, see? ignorance or pride? I'll take ignorance, why, because an ignorant person is ripe for learning....but a prideful person like you thinks they already have all the answers and have no use for further learning,.....even when you are wrong.

John

God made requirements that man could never keep showing their lost state and inability.

I have not called you ignorant John.

I have stated fact. Salvation to some is due for cooperation, rendering it a reward, though they would preach it a gift, yet, they teach it is a reward for choosing. They are saved because they chose, cooperated &c. That's the difference.

 

[quantumfaith]

You can call it cooperation if you like. See here where God encourages the cooperation also:

"Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat of the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." (Isa. 1:16-20).

We should encourage all men to cooperate with the Lord (like encouraged here in Isa.) when seeking Him for salvation.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[matt wade]

you are the first Calvinist on this board that i have seen that believes this.

If you believe that we have a choice, then what makes you a Calvinist?

John

Every Calvinist here will tell you this. Then they will go on to tell you that the only reason they choose Christ is because God made them. (They'll say it fancier and try and twist the words, but that's the meaning.)

 

[seekingthetruth]

God made requirements that man could never keep showing their lost state and inability.

I have not called you ignorant John.

I have stated fact. Salvation to some is due for cooperation, rendering it a reward, though they would preach it a gift, yet, they teach it is a reward for choosing. They are saved because they chose, cooperated &c. That's the difference.

You said that I must not have ever studied freewill, implying that I am ignorant.

I have studied it which why I believe it to be biblical.

All of you Dogs make statements and then try to wiggle out of it and say you really meant something else when questioned about it.

Hogwash

I am done.

Goodnight

 

[matt wade]

I have stated fact. Salvation to some is due for cooperation, rendering it a reward, though they would preach it a gift, yet, they teach it is a reward for choosing. They are saved because they chose, cooperated &c. That's the difference.

And, according to Calvinism, you are saved simply because God choose you rather than some others. It isn't randomness, because then we'd see an equal distribution over ethnic groups. So, according to Calvinism, God is also a racist.

 

[quantumfaith]

I thought I should step in and correct you here...Reformed baptists DO believe that we must chose to be saved. Primitive Baptists & Hyper-Calvinists do not. I don't know what P4T would say to this, but most reformed baptists would say you do have to believe in Repent & Believe in Christ to be saved.

Thanks,
-Andy

Thank you Andy, the intellectually honest person realizes that no matter where your soteriological proclivities lie, one MUST make a choice. Man most certainly has a part in the equation, otherwise,

"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"

 

[preacher4truth]

You said that I must not have ever studied freewill, implying that I am ignorant.

I have studied it which why I believe it to be biblical.

All of you Dogs make statements and then try to wiggle out of it and say you really meant something else when questioned about it.

Hogwash

I am done.

Goodnight

Asking if you've studied freewill is not implying ignorance. That's all on you.

Since you've studied it, elaborate on it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thank you Andy, the intellectually honest person realizes that no matter where your soteriological proclivities lie, one MUST make a choice. Man most certainly has a part in the equation, otherwise,

"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"

Shakesphere.....Are you now suggesting that PB's believe themselves to be mere puppets or programed robots? If you do ....well , NO, you decide & give me your answer.

 

[12strings]

you are the first Calvinist on this board that i have seen that believes this.

If you believe that we have a choice, then what makes you a Calvinist?

John

I'm sure many on here would agree...but as for me, I read in the Bible that I must chose God. I also read that the fact that I believe shows that God has chosen me. I have read several explanations of the passages that speak of "chosen/election/Predestination" that explain them either as chosen based on foreknowledge of faith (wesleyan view) OR that it is all speaking of Corporate Election. I have not found these explainations convincing, and so, while i recognize there is a corporate aspect to election...there also seems to be an inescapable individual aspect of election before the foundation of the world, not based on foreseen faith.

Many will disagree with this idea, seeing the election/choosing passages in either a corporate way, or in a way of choosing those who god knew would choose him. That is fine, but I personally have not been convinced by either of these options.

The way this works itself out in life is something of a mystery, but the classic calvinist view goes like this: All people are sinners, and if God simply said, "Come" then none would come. So God chooses some, gives them the faith in Christ that they could not muster up on their own. So yes, I chose God, because he chose me. Election is not about keeping people out of heaven, but about getting people into heaven.

I realize the idea of unconditonal Election raises all sorts of questions and problems, but so does any other explanation. All of us are simply trying to answer the questions:
-Why do some believe and some don't?
-How does God's sovereignty and Human responsibility work?

Calvinists are simply those regular christians who think the Bible teaches unconditional election; THey also believe that sinners must repent and place their faith in Christ, and they believe we are called to share the Gospel with every man. Some might say that is a paraxdox, but so is the fact that God's plans "cannot be Thwarted" & "You have not because you ask not."

 

[quantumfaith]

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Hebrews 11:16

 

[quantumfaith]

Shakesphere.....Are you now suggesting that PB's believe themselves to be mere puppets or programed robots? If you do ....well , NO, you decide & give me your answer.

Well, EWF, if you feel that man has no role, no obligation, no part in the salvation experience, then one can make the logical argument. I respect your convictions on the matter, disagree many times, but respect them.

 

[12strings]

I would add that it is unfortunate that many calvinists seem more concerned with converting everyone to calvinism than on converting them to Christ. We had someone like this attend our church for about a month, and they apparently ended up deciding we weren't reformed enough. (we have 4 calvinist Pastors!)

Unfortunatly, many people's only contact with a calvinist is with those who aggressivly push the calvinist beliefs on anyone who says something that seems contrary to it.

I am thankful that my experience was the opposite. In college, I knew a few godly young people, my roommate included, who had a heart for God and for people for the scriptures, and for the lost; and later found out they were calvinists. I also heard some new preachers for the first time, and (after hearing some crazy word-faith type people) liked the fact that they simply preached the bible...I late found out that several of them were calvinists. I at that time started to think, maybe these calvinists are onto something here, since it seems that many of the men I had grown to respect turned out to be calvinists. (MacArthur, Spurgeon, Alistair Begg).

 

[12strings]

Every Calvinist here will tell you this. Then they will go on to tell you that the only reason they choose Christ is because God made them. (They'll say it fancier and try and twist the words, but that's the meaning.)

Perhaps, but it is only because we see in the bible that God chose us, and also that we must choose God, and we think we have to believe both of them.

(and like I said before, I haven't found the arguments for Corporate ONLY election to be very convincing... I recognize that God did engage in corporate election, of israel, and the church, but that doesn't get around the fact that those corporate entities were made up of individuals).

 

[quantumfaith]

Perhaps, but it is only because we see in the bible that God chose us, and also that we must choose God, and we think we have to believe both of them.

(and like I said before, I haven't found the arguments for Corporate ONLY election to be very convincing... I recognize that God did engage in corporate election, of israel, and the church, but that doesn't get around the fact that those corporate entities were made up of individuals).

12 strings, I am convinced that the aversion that many "c's" have for the "non c's" regarding the issue of Unconditional Election is this;

I have often seen expressed and implied, that the disagreement that "non c's" have with "individual election" is based on self pride and self will (free will), almost akin to the original rebellion. Perhaps it is that "non c's" really are "just a little more humble" than this would imply, perhaps they feel this way out of a sincere and deep genuine feeling of being no more worthy of salvation than any other human being who has drawn breath on this planet.

 

[12strings]

12 strings, I am convinced that the aversion that many "c's" have for the "non c's" regarding the issue of Unconditional Election is this;

I have often seen expressed and implied, that the disagreement that "non c's" have with "individual election" is based on self pride and self will (free will), almost akin to the original rebellion. Perhaps it is that "non c's" really are "just a little more humble" than this would imply, perhaps they feel this way out of a sincere and deep genuine feeling of being no more worthy of salvation than any other human being who has drawn breath on this planet.

I don't know if I would say it that way. Are you saying that the Cals you know are more humble than the non-cals? Some certainly say that the Cal doctrine should make us so...but it doesn't always work that way does it?

I simply see no way other than individual, unconditional election to adequatly explain the passages that speak of God choosing us.

 

[jbh28]

you are the first Calvinist on this board that i have seen that believes this.

If you believe that we have a choice, then what makes you a Calvinist?

John

http://www.oldtruth.com/calvinism/avoidingconfusion.html