You have stated and agreed with me that salvation is a gift.
Two questions:
Do you have that gift? (not questioning your salvation)
Secondly, how did you come to receive that gift?
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Salvation: A Gift or a Reward?
- Thread starter preacher4truth
- Start date
Two questions:
Do you have that gift? (not questioning your salvation)
Secondly, how did you come to receive that gift?
quantumfaith
Active Member
I don't know if I would say it that way. Are you saying that the Cals you know are more humble than the non-cals? Some certainly say that the Cal doctrine should make us so...but it doesn't always work that way does it?
I simply see no way other than individual, unconditional election to adequatly explain the passages that speak of God choosing us.
What I was attempting to communicate was the impression I read from some, is that "non-agreement" with unconditional election seems to be made by some as an issue of "self pride", I honestly think that this could not be further from the truth.
In much the same, many "non c's" view the "c's" (improperly I might add) perspective on election, in much the same way of excessive pride.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Please know, that those of us who hold to the 'corporate' view of election aren't attempting to deny that the corporate entities are made up of individuals. In fact, we don't deny that the individuals are personally affected by God's election.
Israel was elected to bring redemption to the world through prophets, priests, kings and finally apostles. Christ came through Israel and so did His message of redemption. That IS God's purpose in the election of Israel.
So, when Paul says, "so that God's purpose in election might stand.." this is what He is referring to.
God chose Paul, a rebellious pharisee, for the 'noble purpose' of being an apostle, while other pharisees who were no better or worse than Paul were passed over and left for 'common use' as they remained blinded in their hardened rebellion. All the while God was grafting in the Gentiles by Paul's ministry, which was his plan from the beginning of time. Yet, Paul still held out hope for his hardened fellow Jew as his ministry to the Gentiles might provoke them to envy and save some. (Rm 11:14) For the mystery of the kingdom is being revealed, that God has predetermined to save whosoever believes on Him, whether Jew or Gentile.
That view of election involves corporate (Israel) and individuals (prophets/apostles) and God's predestined plan to save whosoever believes.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I know it is difficult to see a passage from a different perspective when you have become so accustom to reading it from your own perspective, so let's use an analogy to gain a different perspective:
Pretend with me that we live before the Civil War and we are all slave owners. We have been taught wrongly that black people are not real people, just property. We, therefore, have concluded that God has no place for them to be saved. In our minds, they are no different than animals. (Of course, this thinking is abhorrent, and rightly so, but many held to this belief in those days, so please stay with me on the point of the analogy)
Now, you, are a respected pastor in the community and all of your pastor friends and mentors believe as you do that blacks are not apart of God's covenant. In fact, you think they are not worthy of God's attention any more so than a dog. This is how you were raised to think as was everyone around you.
One day, God blinds you while walking down the road (like He did Paul) or speaks to you in a vivid dream (like He did Peter) and tells you that your views about black people are wrong and that God loves them and wants them to be a part of His covenant just like white people. At first your flesh objects saying, "What not those dirty slaves, surely not, you have only chosen us Lord." But God convinces you that his love for them is as real as his love for you and that it has ALWAYS been His plan from the very beginning to save the black people.
Then God calls you to preach to blacks and convince the whites that your ministry is really from God. Difficult job. Now, you can relate to Paul's dilemma with regard to the Gentiles.
Continuing in our analogy; you become know as the "preacher to the blacks" and you are not very popular at all. In fact, the whites argue that blacks aren't deserving of entrance into God's covenant and they beat you and even throw you in prison many times. But you argue, "God can show mercy on whom ever he wants!" And when you write to the black churches that you started you say things like, "I thank God that He has chosen you from the beginning," because people all around you keep telling them they have not been chosen by God. Even those whites who do believe you are trying to get the blacks to cover their dark skin or paint over it so they can become like the whites and you have to continually defend them.
I know this is just an analogy and all analogies fall short, but hopefully this one provides some perspective as to why Paul says some of the things he says. Such as, "I praise God that he has chosen you from the foundation of the world..." etc... We have to be careful not to confuse what God is choosing.
1. He chose Israel (i.e. the white people in the analogy) to receive God's revelation first
2. He chose the Remnant (white people who preached to the blacks) to take the message of reconciliation to the whole world...to your own people first (who are blinded) and then to the blacks, who will listen. (ref Acts 28:28)
3. He chose the whole world ("every creature") to receive the invitation to come to faith and repentance through Jesus Christ.
I believe Calvinists make the mistake of taking verses that are in reference to God's choice of these three things and misapply them to their view of the unconditional election and irresistible call of a select few to the neglect of all others.
jonathan.borland
Active Member
Salvation is a free gift given to those who respond in faith and repentance to the special conviction of the Holy Spirit thereby effecting regeneration or new birth, the evidence of which is good works in Christ Jesus.
That seems a very good answer to me.
Salvation is not earned or rewarded without man's response to the word of God. It must be desired, sought, and bought by a man before he obtains it. It is not just given out willy-nilly to any old uninterested slob that comes along. Isa. 55:1 says,
"Ho, every one that thirsteth (first, a desire), come ye to the waters (seek God with the undivided heart), and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price."
Don't want it? You won't get it, no mater what anybody says to the contrary. God offers salvation for the taking, but will not give it to those who don't want it or will not come after it. That is a fact.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Excellent Post!!!
:laugh: Its not a free gift if you have to do something in order to receive it.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Is the EIC, (Eaned Income Credit) a "free gift"?
You cannot receive a gift without doing something. You have to take possession of it.
no its the BS government....hardly a gift.
What is a BS government?
Yes....after the gift is given. & you should be grateful
Glad we agree so then we understand that the reward claim is false.
But we do not agree. Dont jump to conclusions......If you give someone a gift, it should not come with any strings attached. If it is given in order to solicit a response, its not given in sincerely....rather its given to solicit a response. It's no longer sincere.
Garbage, the response is receiving it. Creating this false analogy does nothing for your position.
ROFL....Your funny, & I again point out your position is ridiculous, but support it all you want...its a free country. But dont expect me to. :laugh:
jonathan.borland
Active Member
Is irresistible grace given to solicit a response?
Eternal salvation was accomplished by Christ upon the cross for all that the Father gave to him. Our regeneration is not when eternal salvation was accomplished, but it was at the time that Christ died for the sins of those that God gave him. There are a lot of salvation scriptures that are pertaining to deliverances we recieve here on this earth, but the security of our eternal salvation happened on the cross.