Salvation and sin

[TCGreek]

So am I and will unrepented adultery send you to hell?? Adultery is a singular act, that can be done over and over, but if you are guilty of "one" then you are guilty of all. See what I mean? A singular act, can make you guilty of all.

BBob,

How were you able to decide that adultery was the single act of 1 John 5 as the "sin unto death" and not say "anger"?

 

[Brother Bob]

I don't remember the question being asked of me. Perhaps it was and I over-looked it. But I will give you an answer. How well do you understand the atonement? I explained this concept in the Other Christian Denominations Forum. It is a misunderstood doctrine by many. Perhaps if I explain your question in the light of the Atonement you will better understand my answer.

Romans 5:10-11 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

This is the only time in the NT that the word "atonement" is found. It means "reconciliation." In fact that is the way that the Geneva Bible translates it. However, it is the means of reconciliation, not the result. Other words connected with the atonement are: propitiation or satisfaction, a covering.

I agree and that why we are "kept" by the power of God thereafter. It is not a ticket to sin, but Grace to keep you from the sins unto death.

A good picture of the Atonement is given in the OT during the Passover. A lamb, by each household had to be shed. The blood was the payment for the sin. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Without the blood there could be no reconciliation. Blood was the payment. But it wasn't just the blood that was needed. The blood had to be applied by each individual. Each house had to take that blood and put it on the posts of their house and on the lintel above. Then when the death angel flew over the houses that night; when he saw the blood he passed over those houses. They were protected by the blood. The blood acted as a covering for those who believed. All of their sins were under the blood. They were under God's protection. Those who were not suffered the terrible consequences of God's judgment.

Yea, but what happened to them afterwards, they roamed in the wilderness until they all died for worshipping Idols.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. A wage is something I deserve, something that I work for. I deserve eternal death, eternal separation from God. It is a wage that I cannot pay, and that I do not want. The good news is that Christ loved me enough to pay the penalty for me.

Right! but He also saved you by Grace and keeps you by Grace and for your temptations makes a way for your escape. He said my Grace is suffecient for thee. The steps of a good man are ordered of the Lord and that is not back into perdition.
Do you believe God has the power to stop you from incest?


The atonement is a literal payment for my sins. Christ paid the price of my sins literally with his blood. When his blood was shed it satisfied the legal demands of God.
IJohn 2:2 says:
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Right! and He also keeps you thereafter.

--It was literal and personal. Propitiation means satisfaction. He satisfied the demands of God from a legal perspective. He paid the penalty, a penalty that I could never pay. It was personal. If I was the only person on the face of this world Jesus Christ loved me (or you) enough that he would have come and died just for me. It was an intensely personal love.

Right! and you are no longer your own keeper, but kept by the power of God.

--It was a collective love. "And not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world." He shed his blood for the sins of the whole world. He paid for them all--every one of them--adultery, drunkeness, murder, sorcery, incest, the worst sins you could ever think of, Jesus paid for them all with his blood. There is not one sin that Jesus never paid for. He paid for them all with his blood. He paid the penalty for all of our sins. He could do that for two reasons:
1. He was the only one to live a sinless life.
2. He was God.

Right! though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be made white as snow. I will never remember them against you anymore, So those sins unto death, you are free from them because the body is dead to them. If you only understood the great power of God, not only to forgive, but to keep. Which would be the hardest for God to do, forgive you, or keep you?


1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

He paid the penalty for our sins, no matter how bad they would be, with his own blood.

Right! and I am so glad that you will not go back into perdition for He will not make another sacrifice for you, for if you put God to an open shame, there remaineth no more sacrifice.

He paid the penalty of them all: past, present and future.
Our sins are covered by the blood of Christ.

Right! but the future does not include such sins as incest. Christians do not commit incest.

The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Since he has paid for my sins, and I have applied that blood to my life, he has given me eternal life as a gift--a gift that can never be taken away. If it could be taken away it would no longer be eternal, and Christ would be a liar. Eternal only has one meaning--eternal, everlasting, without end; not temporary.

Right! and you won't be putting Him to an open shame by committing incest, rape, pedophiler etc, for by His Grace, you are what you are, and His Grace keeps you.

In the atonement all my sins are covered. They are paid for. Thus if a Christian were to commit the sin of adultery and not repent before he die, he would still go to heaven.

If it were possible for a Christian to commit adultery and fall back into perdition, there remaineth no more sacrifice, but it is impossible for a Christian to commit such acts, for Jesus Himself, dwells right inside of you and He is going to have no part of that.

His sins are under the blood. God already took care of them. If you claim that he would have to repent in order for him to go to heaven, then you insult Christ and have made Christianity into a religion of works. You are basically telling Christ that His work of atonement is not sufficient. His blood was not enough to pay the full atonement, to satisfy the demands of God. Man has to pay his own part in the plan of God's salvation. Man has to repent before he goes to heaven.

You claim that we have an advocate with God if we sin, also you claim we receive chastisement for sin. So, apparently the blood was not enough, according to your belief.

That denies what the Bible says:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Right! Grace "through faith", "you must believe, or you die in your sins."

Repentance is a work. If man had to repent salvation would not be by grace through faith; it would be by works. And man would get to heaven and boast about what he had done to help Jesus pay for our sins. What blasphemy that would be. I for one, would not want to live in a heaven like that.

This part is foolish, if a man never "turns" or repents of his sins, hell will be his home.

It is also foolish, to suggest there will be bragging in Heaven.

You believe in a God that is so powerful that He can forgive your sins, but you seem to believe that He is not powerful enough to keep you then. Amazing
How do you tell the church from the world, or can you?


BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

How were you able to decide that adultery was the single act of 1 John 5 as the "sin unto death" and not say "anger"?

It is just one of the many sin unto death.

Adultery

worshipping Idols

coveting another man's wife

lying

stealing

killing

and on and on.

You get the point, they are all singular but in and of themselves without repentance brings death.

Also, if you are guilty of one, then you become guilty of all.

Any sin, that will send you to hell, is a sin unto death.

The soul that sinneth shall die, it also is unto death.

When we come to know God and Glorify Him not as God, then we sin, and its unto death also, called the second death. To escape it, you must repent and have the blood of Christ applied to your soul. If you do it again, there will be no more sacrifice for you, but I do not believe you can do it again, for we are kept by the power of God.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

The only sin that will send a person to hell is rejection of Christ as Saviour.
Unrepented adultery, therefore will not.

The rich man went there for uncompassion. I guess you missed that one. Really only thing we have to go by.

I hate to be so gross, but if I understand your theology right. A man could be in the very act of raping a 4 year old girl, of which was on the news tonight. He could be raping her when Jesus comes and get up and go to Heaven, is that right. I don't want to misrepresent you.

Sounds like how Moses found the children of Israel, when he came down off the mount.



From KTLA.com:

Rancho Santa Margarita woman facing up to 109 years in prison for helping her boyfriend videotape sexual assaults on her 4-year-old niece told a judge she deserved to be punished for her actions, even though her sister -- and mother of the victim -- asked for leniency.​

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

It is just one of the many sin unto death.

1. BBob, the Bible doesn't say that. Let me quote what the Bible says:

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death" ( 1 John 5:16, 17, KJV, emphasis mine).

2. Where in the Bible does it say that the "sin unto death" is one of the many sins you have outlined below?

Adultery

worshipping Idols

coveting another man's wife

lying

stealing

killing

and on and on.

You get the point, they are all singular but in and of themselves without repentance brings death.

Also, if you are guilty of one, then you become guilty of all.

Any sin, that will send you to hell, is a sin unto death.

3. According to your reasoning then, any sin a believer commits can lead him to hell?

The soul that sinneth shall die, it also is unto death.

When we come to know God and Glorify Him not as God, then we sin, and its unto death also, called the second death. To escape it, you must repent and have the blood of Christ applied to your soul. If you do it again, there will be no more sacrifice for you, but I do not believe you can do it again, for we are kept by the power of God.

BBob,

4. So then, you are making a distinction among believers?

 

[Brother Bob]

1. BBob, the Bible doesn't say that. Let me quote what the Bible says:

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death" ( 1 John 5:16, 17, KJV, emphasis mine).

2. Where in the Bible does it say that the "sin unto death" is one of the many sins you have outlined below?



3. According to your reasoning then, any sin a believer commits can lead him to hell?

The soul that sinneth shall die, it also is unto death.



4. So then, you are making a distinction among believers?

Yes, I believe the scripture that speaks if you put God to an open shame, to renew him unto repentance again is impossible, is telling us how impossible it is for a Christian to commit such an act.

Any of the sins I listed, if it were possible for a Christian to commit, there will be no more sacrifice. Therefore, that is why I believe the scripture is teaching us how impossible for a Christian to commit them.

It would be hard to deny that adultery is a sin that is unto death, if not repented of, and if a Christian should commit such an act, which I believe to be impossible, then there would be no more sacrifice.

There are false brethren who have came in unawares, to seek out our liberty. I believe this is who commits those acts while members of a church somewhere, not true Christians, who are kept by the power of God. These false brethren, are not kept by the power of God.

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

Yes, I believe the scripture that speaks if you put God to an open shame, to renew him unto repentance again is impossible, is telling us how impossible it is for a Christian to commit such an act.

Any of the sins I listed, if it were possible for a Christian to commit, there will be no more sacrifice. Therefore, that is why I believe the scripture is teaching us how impossible for a Christian to commit them.

It would be hard to deny that adultery is a sin that is unto death, if not repented of, and if a Christian should commit such an act, which I believe to be impossible, then there would be no more sacrifice.

There are false brethren who have came in unawares, to seek out our liberty. I believe this is who commits those acts while members of a church somewhere, not true Christians, who are kept by the power of God. These false brethren, are not kept by the power of God.

BBob,

BBob,

Do genuine Christians lie?

 

[tinytim]

So am I and will unrepented adultery send you to hell??

Not if God has declared them Justified by Christ's blood..

The only sin that sends a person to Hell is rejecting Jesus.

To say that a person must repent constantly is works...
And that is not eternal security.. it is not Grace... and it is not the Gospel of Paul or the Bible...

It is a damnable doctrine of works that will damn a soul to hell.

Anyone that preaches anything other than the total Grace of God, is not preaching the true Gospel...

We are saved by Grace... NOT WORKS.. not constantly keeping ourselves clean... God has already cleansed us, and declared us JUST.

Justification is a one time, legal term that balances our account.
We are justified at the point of salvation, and will be justified throughout all eternity.

 

[Brother Bob]

BBob,

Do genuine Christians lie?

I saw you refuse to debate with charles anymore over this very question.

I will speak for myself. This last week another church had a problem, the Pastor of that church told them to ask Brother Bob about the issue and he would assure them that it would be the truth. In my entire Christian life, I have made it a point to not lie. As far as I honestly know, I have kept that point, so no, I do not lie. I find it hard to believe that a person can not keep from lying. There is such a thing as keeping your mouth shut, when in a tight spot, or simply refusing to give an answer. If this is where you leave me, then it has been a pleasure and I have great respect for you. I can only answer for myself and I know that my God is watching me right now, so God Bless,

BBob,

 

[DHK]

Originally Posted by DHK
Romans 5:10-11 This is the only time in the NT that the word "atonement" is found. It means "reconciliation." In fact that is the way that the Geneva Bible translates it. However, it is the means of reconciliation, not the result. Other words connected with the atonement are: propitiation or satisfaction, a covering.

I agree and that why we are "kept" by the power of God thereafter. It is not a ticket to sin, but Grace to keep you from the sins unto death.

A lie is a sin unto death. Annanias and Sapphira lied, and God killed them. That is a sin unto death.
Not properly observing the Lord’s Table is a sin unto death. The Corinthians were guilty of that. See 1Cor.11:30. God killed some of them for that sin.
Any sin can be a sin unto death. What makes you think that you have an inside look on the mind of God as to what is a sin unto death and what is not. The sin unto death results in physical death, and in no way has anything to do with Hell. If you have lied during your Christian life you have committed a sin unto death. So what makes you think that you haven’t committed such a sin? Your self-righteousness may be a sin unto death. Only God knows. All sin is equal in God’s eyes. Therefore all sins are sins unto death. The Bible teaches that. The wages of sin is death. “And sin when it is finished bringeth forth death.”

The blood acted as a covering for those who believed. All of their sins were under the blood. They were under God's protection. Those who were not suffered the terrible consequences of God's judgment.

Yea, but what happened to them afterwards, they roamed in the wilderness until they all died for worshipping Idols.

They still remained God’s children. They still remained Israelites. God, in no way, cast them out of his family. Notice they suffered a physical death. That is the definition of a sin unto death—a physical death. God took them out of this world before their scheduled time. So it is in the NT. But God never cast them out of his family. God never sent them to Hell.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. A wage is something I deserve, something that I work for. I deserve eternal death, eternal separation from God. It is a wage that I cannot pay, and that I do not want. The good news is that Christ loved me enough to pay the penalty for me.

Right! but He also saved you by Grace and keeps you by Grace and for your temptations makes a way for your escape. He said my Grace is suffecient for thee. The steps of a good man are ordered of the Lord and that is not back into perdition.
Do you believe God has the power to stop you from incest?

1. He keeps me by grace. That is true.
2. He makes a way that I may escape from temptation or testing. That is true.
3. His grace is sufficient for me. That is true.
4. “The steps of a good men are ordered by the Lord.” (a quote from Psalms)
5. “and that is not unto perdition” A false conclusion and false doctrine. It has nothing to do with the verse from Psalms. The steps of a “good man” (believer) cannot lead to perdition. That is impossible. The believer has eternal life. He is eternally secured in the hand of the Lord. He cannot fall into perdition. Do you believe in a gospel of works or grace? It sounds like works which is another gospel, which Paul said is accursed.

6. Do you believe that God has the power to stop you from incest?
The question is moot. It is irrelevant. Do you believe God has the power to make you a robot, an automaton? Did he? Is that what you are? Simply a machine with no will—forced to do the will of the Father with no will of your own?
Any believer is capable of doing any sin. All believers have a sin nature that they struggle with even as Paul struggled with his (See Romans 7).
God gave us a will to choose to do good and evil—even as a Christian. The Christian brother at Corinth (1Cor.5) committed incest, and yet was forgiven. He had eternal life, and there is no reason not to believe that he will be in heaven. God did not make us robots. God did not take away our wills—even to commit evil.

The atonement is a literal payment for my sins. Christ paid the price of my sins literally with his blood. When his blood was shed it satisfied the legal demands of God. IJohn 2:2

Right! and He also keeps you thereafter.

No, God does not keep you from evil. He makes no such promise. As you previously said: He makes a way to escape. But he doesn’t force you to take it. He doesn’t force you to do good. You have to choose that route yourself. God has not made you a robot and forces you to do good. You choose of your own volition whether you want to lie or murder or commit adultery—all of which are possible by you or any other Christian. They will not take away their salvation but will affect their fellowship with God.

It was literal and personal. Propitiation means satisfaction. He satisfied the demands of God from a legal perspective. He paid the penalty, a penalty that I could never pay

Right! and you are no longer your own keeper, but kept by the power of God.

My salvation is kept by the power of God. There is no promise in the Bible that says that God will keep me from sin. In fact the Bible says that the one who says he does not sin deceives himself and the truth is not in him (1John 1:8).

It was a collective love. "And not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world." He shed his blood for the sins of the whole world. He paid for them all--every one of them--adultery, drunkeness, murder, sorcery, incest, the worst sins you could ever think of, Jesus paid for them all with his blood. There is not one sin that Jesus never paid for. He paid for them all with his blood. He paid the penalty for all of our sins. He could do that for two reasons:
1. He was the only one to live a sinless life.
2. He was God.

Right! though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be made white as snow. I will never remember them against you anymore, So those sins unto death, you are free from them because the body is dead to them. If you only understood the great power of God, not only to forgive, but to keep. Which would be the hardest for God to do, forgive you, or keep you?

Provide your list of sins unto death—something that you have never done. There is no such thing. This is just a “get out of ‘hell’ free card” that you use for your convenient theology which is totally unbiblical and denies the sufficiency of the blood of Christ. It says that the blood of Christ is not sufficient to forgive all sins!! But rather can only forgive the sins that you alone choose. What arrogance!!
I understand the great power of God, but I don’t understand the great power of Bob to decide for God which sins he may or may not forgive.
God has forgiven me all my sins: past, present, and future. I will never lose my salvation.
And perchance I fall into great sin, I will lose fellowship with God, but never my salvation. I am born into God’s family and cannot be unborn.

 

[Brother Bob]

Not if God has declared them Justified by Christ's blood..

The only sin that sends a person to Hell is rejecting Jesus.

You don't believe when He said the words that I speak shall judge you in the last day?

To say that a person must repent constantly is works...
And that is not eternal security.. it is not Grace... and it is not the Gospel of Paul or the Bible...

So your faith is without works? James said a faith without works is dead.

It is a damnable doctrine of works that will damn a soul to hell.

If you love me, you will keep my sayings. You go to your church and I will go to mine.

Anyone that preaches anything other than the total Grace of God, is not preaching the true Gospel...

We are saved by Grace and Grace alone, but "through faith".

We are saved by Grace... NOT WORKS.. not constantly keeping ourselves clean... God has already cleansed us, and declared us JUST.

We can't keep ourselves, but God can, for we are kept by the power of God, who have been "born again".

Justification is a one time, legal term that balances our account.
We are justified at the point of salvation, and will be justified throughout all eternity.

Only because we are kept by the power of God. "Father, I have lost none, saving the son of perdition". Shows He keeps us.

I do not say that. I say his blood cleanses us from all sin and we are saved by His Grace and also, Kept by His Grace. I believe His strength in keeping me is just as strong as His strength in saving me. We sin as Christians, but not the sins of perdition.

As James says, You show me your faith without your works and I will show you mine by my works, for faith without works is "dead". You can't get to Heaven on a "dead" faith.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

He paid the penalty for our sins, no matter how bad they would be, with his own blood.

Right! and I am so glad that you will not go back into perdition for He will not make another sacrifice for you, for if you put God to an open shame, there remaineth no more sacrifice.

That is quite correct. I am saved. All my sins: past, present, and future are all under the blood. No matter what sin I commit it is under the blood. I will never lose my salvation, never. There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus—none.
However, having said that, Christianity is not a license to sin.

He paid the penalty of them all: past, present and future.
Our sins are covered by the blood of Christ.

Right! but the future does not include such sins as incest. Christians do not commit incest.

Who says they don’t. The Christian brother in 1Cor.5 did. Do you deny the Scriptures?
A Christian is capable to commit any sin, simply because he has a sin nature. No Christian is immune to sin.

The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Since he has paid for my sins, and I have applied that blood to my life, he has given me eternal life as a gift--a gift that can never be taken away.

Right! and you won't be putting Him to an open shame by committing incest, rape, pedophiler etc, for by His Grace, you are what you are, and His Grace keeps you.

His grace does not necessarily keep you from all sin. That promise is never given in the Bible. The Bible says in Rom.6:11 “Likewise reckon yourselves indeed to be dead unto sin.” That takes work on your part. It is a decision that you have to make every day. “To reckon yourself—Consider yourself. It is an active decision that you must make. God isn’t going to do it for you. Our salvation is kept by His grace. That doesn’t make us sinless. It doesn’t even keep us from “the big sins,” so to speak. But there really aren’t any. All sins are the same in God’s sight.

In the atonement all my sins are covered. They are paid for. Thus if a Christian were to commit the sin of adultery and not repent before he die, he would still go to heaven.

If it were possible for a Christian to commit adultery and fall back into perdition, there remaineth no more sacrifice, but it is impossible for a Christian to commit such acts, for Jesus Himself, dwells right inside of you and He is going to have no part of that.

1. It is not possible for a Christian to fall back into perdition. You seem to have a lack of understanding of salvation. Believers are eternally secured. No believer will ever go to hell.
2. All believers have a sin nature, and therefore every believer (including yourself) is able to commit any sin, even very wicked sins. The self-righteous Pharisees thought the same way that you did. Read Mat.23 to see what Jesus thought about them.
3. Jesus dwells inside of you, and so does your old nature. And they war one against the other. If you give into your old sin nature you will sin—even to the extent of committing adultery. That does not condemn you to Hell however.

His sins are under the blood. God already took care of them. If you claim that he would have to repent in order for him to go to heaven, then you insult Christ and have made Christianity into a religion of works. You are basically telling Christ that His work of atonement is not sufficient. His blood was not enough to pay the full atonement, to satisfy the demands of God. Man has to pay his own part in the plan of God's salvation. Man has to repent before he goes to heaven.

You claim that we have an advocate with God if we sin, also you claim we receive chastisement for sin. So, apparently the blood was not enough, according to your belief.

No, that is your belief. You are the one that believes that a Christian can lose his salvation if he commits adultery and does not repent before he dies. The Bible teaches no such thing. Thus you believe that the blood is not sufficient enough to cover all our sins.

Repentance is a work. If man had to repent salvation would not be by grace through faith; it would be by works. And man would get to heaven and boast about what he had done to help Jesus pay for our sins. What blasphemy that would be. I for one, would not want to live in a heaven like that.

This part is foolish, if a man never "turns" or repents of his sins, hell will be his home.

It is also foolish, to suggest there will be bragging in Heaven.

You believe in a God that is so powerful that He can forgive your sins, but you seem to believe that He is not powerful enough to keep you then. Amazing
How do you tell the church from the world, or can you?

1. We are speaking of believers, not unbelievers. Thus hell will not be his home. Believers do not go to hell. Do you believe in eternal security? It appears not.
2. Any person who believes that a believer will get to heaven by repenting of a certain sin after salvation believes in salvation of works, and thus are able to boast of their salvation in heaven. Eph.2:8,9 is true.
3. God never, never promised to keep you sinless. Wherever did you get that foolish doctrine from. Prove it from Scripture.
4. How do you explain to your church that they can be sinless when they know in their hearts that they can’t. Amazing!!

 

[TCGreek]

I saw you refuse to debate with charles anymore over this very question.

I will speak for myself. This last week another church had a problem, the Pastor of that church told them to ask Brother Bob about the issue and he would assure them that it would be the truth. In my entire Christian life, I have made it a point to not lie. As far as I honestly know, I have kept that point, so no, I do not lie. I find it hard to believe that a person can not keep from lying. There is such a thing as keeping your mouth shut, when in a tight spot, or simply refusing to give an answer. If this is where you leave me, then it has been a pleasure and I have great respect for you. I can only answer for myself and I know that my God is watching me right now, so God Bless,

BBob,

BBob, I respect you too. I believe you love the Lord.

But according to your theology, I would not be a genuine Christian, because I still struggle with sin, including occasional lying, which I'm not proud of.

But I'm not judged on my performance, for Christ has paid for all of my sins in full, past, present and future.

So there's really no need for me to debate this issue anymore.

At some point, It becomes pointless.

 

[tinytim]

BBob, I respect you too. I believe you love the Lord.

But according to your theology, I would not be a genuine Christian, because I still struggle with sin, including occasional lying, which I'm not proud of.

But I'm not judged on my performance, for Christ has paid for all of my sins in full, past, present and future.

So there's really no need for me to debate this issue anymore.

At some point, It becomes pointless.

I agree... I must be a lost person too...
So, I won't discuss this anymore with those who think they cannot sin.

I know the word abides in me... and because it does it humbles me enough to admit I sin... And this is my last word on the subject...
This is from my sermon this coming Sunday...


"1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."



If the Word is in us, we will be humble and honest enough to admit we sin.
But I guess John must not have been saved, because he included himself with his usage of the pronouns "us" and "we"

 

[Brother Bob]

A lie is a sin unto death. Annanias and Sapphira lied, and God killed them. That is a sin unto death.

Right! and not physical either.

Not properly observing the Lord’s Table is a sin unto death. The Corinthians were guilty of that. See 1Cor.11:30. God killed some of them for that sin.

To die in Christ is gain, do you mean they get rewarded??

Any sin can be a sin unto death. What makes you think that you have an inside look on the mind of God as to what is a sin unto death and what is not. The sin unto death results in physical death, and in no way has anything to do with Hell. If you have lied during your Christian life you have committed a sin unto death. So what makes you think that you haven’t committed such a sin? Your self-righteousness may be a sin unto death. Only God knows. All sin is equal in God’s eyes. Therefore all sins are sins unto death. The Bible teaches that. The wages of sin is death. “And sin when it is finished bringeth forth death.”

Not true or scripture, Jesus said, he that hath delivered me unto thee, hath the "greater sin".


They still remained God’s children. They still remained Israelites. God, in no way, cast them out of his family. Notice they suffered a physical death. That is the definition of a sin unto death—a physical death. God took them out of this world before their scheduled time. So it is in the NT. But God never cast them out of his family. God never sent them to Hell.

You don't know who He saved and who He did not, the rich man according to the Lord, had "Moses". He must of been an Israelite.

Guess you forgot that all that are of Israel are not Israel, but on a remnant.


1. He keeps me by grace. That is true.
2. He makes a way that I may escape from temptation or testing. That is true.
3. His grace is sufficient for me. That is true.
4. “The steps of a good men are ordered by the Lord.” (a quote from Psalms)
5. “and that is not unto perdition” A false conclusion and false doctrine. It has nothing to do with the verse from Psalms. The steps of a “good man” (believer) cannot lead to perdition. That is impossible. The believer has eternal life. He is eternally secured in the hand of the Lord. He cannot fall into perdition. Do you believe in a gospel of works or grace? It sounds like works which is another gospel, which Paul said is accursed.

Oh, I believe the believer has eternal life, I just don't believe he can go back into perdition, for he is kept by the power of God.


6. Do you believe that God has the power to stop you from incest?
The question is moot. It is irrelevant

Too hard for you to answer hey?

. Do you believe God has the power to make you a robot, an automaton? Did he? Is that what you are? Simply a machine with no will—forced to do the will of the Father with no will of your own?
Any believer is capable of doing any sin. All believers have a sin nature that they struggle with even as Paul struggled with his (See Romans 7).
Oh, I see you answer it here then God can not keep you, but the scripture says we are kept by the power of God.

God gave us a will to choose to do good and evil—even as a Christian. The Christian brother at Corinth (1Cor.5) committed incest, and yet was forgiven. He had eternal life, and there is no reason not to believe that he will be in heaven. God did not make us robots. God did not take away our wills—even to commit evil.

He was put away from them, they did not walk with him anymore, he was darkness until he repented and came back by the door.
I have already given you scripture where "false brethren sneak in among us unawares", so the fact he was called a "brother" means absolutely nothing. Your point is mute and useless.


No, God does not keep you from evil. He makes no such promise. As you previously said: He makes a way to escape. But he doesn’t force you to take it. He doesn’t force you to do good. You have to choose that route yourself. God has not made you a robot and forces you to do good. You choose of your own volition whether you want to lie or murder or commit adultery—all of which are possible by you or any other Christian. They will not take away their salvation but will affect their fellowship with God.

So, you must believe in a fall then, to believe that Christians can murder, commit adultery, lie, commit incest, rape, steal. Man what a church.


My salvation is kept by the power of God. There is no promise in the Bible that says that God will keep me from sin. In fact the Bible says that the one who says he does not sin deceives himself and the truth is not in him (1John 1:8).

There is plenty of scripture that says we are not of them who draw back unto perdition. I have quoted them so many times, it is useless to go get them again for you. You will not hear or forbare.


Provide your list of sins unto death—something that you have never done. There is no such thing. This is just a “get out of ‘hell’ free card” that you use for your convenient theology which is totally unbiblical and denies the sufficiency of the blood of Christ. It says that the blood of Christ is not sufficient to forgive all sins!! But rather can only forgive the sins that you alone choose. What arrogance!!

Again, you make the false statement that I said that all sins were not forgiven, I say they are forgiven. I just believe that Christians do not go back into perdition. Oh yes we are kept by the power of God, and Jesus dwells inside of us. Scripture says that which is born cannot sin. I never see you quote that one.

I understand the great power of God, but I don’t understand the great power of Bob to decide for God which sins he may or may not forgive.
God has forgiven me all my sins: past, present, and future. I will never lose my salvation.
And perchance I fall into great sin, I will lose fellowship with God, but never my salvation. I am born into God’s family and cannot be unborn.

Perchance you fall into a great sin, I am sorry for you.

I notice you did not answer the question of whether what was on the news this evening applies to a Christian, that a man could be in the very act of raping a 4 year old little girl and the Lord come while he was committing the act, will he get up and go to Heaven??

Shoot, if I believed it, I would say it. Thank God I do not believe such hogwash and false doctrine and fables.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

I agree... I must be a lost person too...
So, I won't discuss this anymore with those who think they cannot sin.

I know the word abides in me... and because it does it humbles me enough to admit I sin... And this is my last word on the subject...
This is from my sermon this coming Sunday...


"1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."



If the Word is in us, we will be humble and honest enough to admit we sin.
But I guess John must not have been saved, because he included himself with his usage of the pronouns "us" and "we"

You make a lie, when you say we say we cannot sin. We say we do not sin unto death, or draw back unto perdition.

Those scripture were not put in the Bible to take up space and if it were as you say, no matter if you sin, you remain the same, then no need for many many scripture from Jesus and Paul and others.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

BBob, I respect you too. I believe you love the Lord.

But according to your theology, I would not be a genuine Christian, because I still struggle with sin, including occasional lying, which I'm not proud of.

But I'm not judged on my performance, for Christ has paid for all of my sins in full, past, present and future.

So there's really no need for me to debate this issue anymore.

At some point, It becomes pointless.

I can understand when someone will not debate with those who advocate worshipping the devil, sinning, living a lavisheous life style and stil call themselves Christians, to not debate them. I saw where many were banned for advocating a doctrine which goes against Baptist principles.

What I do not understand, if a man spends his life serving the Lord and living as close to him as God will give him the power to do. One who claims to not commit such sins, that would bring death, but yet admits to being a sinner, to refuse to debate such a one, is astonishing. You don't have to agree with me, but to condemn me because I do live a close Christian life, is an offense to me and I am sure to God. All our churches believe as I do and that is why we can rejoice in our meetings, for we know as Jesus said, unless you suffer with Him, you shall not reign with him.

 

[TCGreek]

I can understand when someone will not debate with those who advocate worshipping the devil, sinning, living a lavisheous life style and stil call themselves Christians, to not debate them. I saw where many were banned for advocating a doctrine which goes against Baptist principles.

What I do not understand, if a man spends his life serving the Lord and living as close to him as God will give him the power to do. One who claims to not commit such sins, that would bring death, but yet admits to being a sinner, to refuse to debate such a one, is astonishing. You don't have to agree with me, but to condemn me because I do live a close Christian life, is an offense to me and I am sure to God. All our churches believe as I do and that is why we can rejoice in our meetings, for we know as Jesus said, unless you suffer with Him, you shall not reign with him.

BBob, I've been exchaning PMs with you, trying to resolve this whole issue of me not willing to debate this subject any longer, but you have decided to make an issue out of it.

Here's the grind: According to your theology, my salvation is at stake, because I do commit that occasional lie.

You believe a Christian does not lie, so then what am I if I lie?

You said that since you became a Christian you have never lied.

I wish not to boast about my own self-righteousness and that is why my salvation is dependent on Christ from start to finish.

Rev 21:8 says that all liars will be thrown into the lake of fire. Now get this: there's a difference between a person who tells an occasional lie and a person who is a compulsive liar.

The compulsive liar is what Rev 21:8 has in mind.

 

[Brother Bob]

BBob, I've been exchaning PMs with you, trying to resolve this whole issue of me not willing to debate this subject any longer, but you have decided to make an issue out of it.

Here's the grind: According to your theology, my salvation is at stake, because I do commit that occasional lie.

You believe a Christian does not lie, so then what am I if I lie?

You said that since you became a Christian you have never lied.

I wish not to boast about my own self-righteousness and that is why my salvation is dependent on Christ from start to finish.

Rev 21:8 says that all liars will be thrown into the lake of fire. Now get this: there's a difference between a person who tells an occasional lie and a person who is a compulsive liar.

The compulsive liar is what Rev 21:8 has in mind.

In the first place where did you get your information that Rev, speaks of a compulsive liar. I believe it say, "them that maketh a lie", singular but not sure, I will check.

No, I don't wish to make this an issue, you are the one who does, even making it known you have pmed me to try and settle this. There is nothing to settle. You will debate on the condition that I say "I am a liar", well If I did say that, then that would make me one. Being you brought up the pm, what did you say about the man raping a 4 year old and the Lord comes and he claims to be a Christian, will he arise and go to heaven. According to you all there is no difference in sin.

Whether you admit it or not, to say that all your future sins are covered regardless of what kind of sin you commit, by the blood of the Lamb is a "ticket to sin". Only thing is, if you are saved all your sins are under the blood, it is just that you do not commit those terrible sins of perdition anymore. Yes, Your sins are covered, but you are not allowed to commit sin unto perdition. Paul said we are not of them who draw back to perdition.

Someone said, how does God do that, put a "force field" around you. If you sin, God has to "allow" it, All God does for His children, is to not Allow those sins of perdition anymore. He is God, He can do that. Now, if we were keeping ourselves, then it would be as you say, we would fall, but we do not keep ourselves, we are kept by the power of God.

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

I'm sorry you saw the need to reveal the contents of our PMs. I simply made reference to the fact.

You have a God-blessed night.