Salvation/election in an illustration

[webdog]

Great back and forth here!! One question, what does free will of man really mean? Can unregenerate man choose of his own volition to have faith in Christ? To me, free will means totally free, without constraint or restraint. Is that so? What about bondage of sin?

Nunatak, free will only means that God has put before man life and death. He has allowed whether man follows Him or not. This is evident from the early OT to the end of the NT. This doesn't mean that God allows the earth to run rampant, though, with no cotrol over what goes on. He does intervene. This is evidenced by the fact God draws all to Him, as without God acting first in man's life, nobody would willingly come looking for God. This is why He has put His Law in all men's hearts (Romans), why He has given man a conscience, and He is known through creation. Everything that is needed to come to Him has been given us, but He has decided sovereignly to allow man to accept or reject Him. Love is never forced in any situation.

 

[Revmitchell]

Great back and forth here!! One question, what does free will of man really mean? Can unregenerate man choose of his own volition to have faith in Christ? To me, free will means totally free, without constraint or restraint. Is that so? What about bondage of sin?

Conviction (to make to see) and regeneration are not the same thing. God does have the power, authority, and will to convict so that one may then choose to make a conscience decision to come to Him. God does the convicting and the regenerating. But in between there is our choice to come to Him. Regardless of our choice God retains all credit and glory for salvation. For without Him we could never have that choice.

And I will just add that no scripture indicates that God refuses to convict some people and He will never reach out to those who reject Him. God reaches out to all men. Many are called but few are chosen.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Nunatak, free will only means that God has put before man life and death. He has allowed whether man follows Him or not. This is evident from the early OT to the end of the NT. This doesn't mean that God allows the earth to run rampant, though, with no cotrol over what goes on. He does intervene. This is evidenced by the fact God draws all to Him, as without God acting first in man's life, nobody would willingly come looking for God. This is why He has put His Law in all men's hearts (Romans), why He has given man a conscience, and He is known through creation. Everything that is needed to come to Him has been given us, but He has decided sovereignly to allow man to accept or reject Him. Love is never forced in any situation.

That is why some men are smarter, more informed, live in a better place making it easier to believe, etc..............

Of course they would never boast however............

 

[reformedbeliever]

Conviction (to make to see) and regeneration are not the same thing. God does have the power, authority, and will to convict so that one may then choose to make a conscience decision to come to Him. God does the convicting and the regenerating. But in between there is our choice to come to Him. Regardless of our choice God retains all credit and glory for salvation. For without Him we could never have that choice.

And I will just add that no scripture indicates that God refuses to convict some people and He will never reach out to those who reject Him. God reaches out to all men. Many are called but few are chosen.

See there............. they would never boast!

 

[Revmitchell]

See there............. they would never boast!

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[reformedbeliever]

What is that supposed to mean?

God does the convicting and the regenerating. But in between there is our choice to come to Him.

Do you think that in between conviction and regeneration, an exercise of your will is the hinge for God to cause you to be born again?

We are not born of flesh or blood or the will of man, but of God. Regeneration is a sovereign act. He causes us to be born again. He awakens our dead spirit.

 

[webdog]

That is why some men are smarter, more informed, live in a better place making it easier to believe, etc..............

Of course they would never boast however............

Who cares what their intellect and arrangements are. The Bible says his Law is on every man's heart. Your boasting strawman doesn't make sense.

 

[Revmitchell]

Do you think that in between conviction and regeneration, an exercise of your will is the hinge for God to cause you to be born again?

The problem is your definition of soveriegnty.

We are not born of flesh or blood or the will of man, but of God. Regeneration is a sovereign act. He causes us to be born again. He awakens our dead spirit.

And on this we agree:thumbs:

 

[reformedbeliever]

The problem is your definition of soveriegnty.




And on this we agree:thumbs:

Care to show how my definition of sovereignty is incorrect?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Who cares what their intellect and arrangements are. The Bible says his Law is on every man's heart. Your boasting strawman doesn't make sense.

What strawman? That is your favorite word huh?

What was it about you that made you make the right choice of believing when other would not?

Do you now have reason to boast?

 

[webdog]

What strawman? That is your favorite word huh?

Only when they are erected

What was it about you that made you make the right choice of believing when other would not?

Nothing "about me". It's "about Him". He offered the gift...I accepted. Some don't. We don't know what goes through the minds of those who don't, and why they have exchanged the truth for a lie. We do know the god of this world blinds them, though.

Do you now have reason to boast?

I've never, ever heard of a person to boast when they accept a gift. Have you? They usually are excited, and quite humble.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Only when they are erected

Nothing "about me". It's "about Him". He offered the gift...I accepted. Some don't. We don't know what goes through the minds of those who don't, and why they have exchanged the truth for a lie. We do know the god of this world blinds them, though.

I've never, ever heard of a person to boast when they accept a gift. Have you? They usually are excited, and quite humble.

Yes. When they say that they were smart enough to choose the gift when someone else didn't.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Only when they are erected

Nothing "about me". It's "about Him". He offered the gift...I accepted. Some don't. We don't know what goes through the minds of those who don't, and why they have exchanged the truth for a lie. We do know the god of this world blinds them, though.

I've never, ever heard of a person to boast when they accept a gift. Have you? They usually are excited, and quite humble.

You'd make a great politician Web. Way to talk circles around the quesiton. You excell at it.

 

[webdog]

Yes. When they say that they were smart enough to choose the gift when someone else didn't.

Never heard that one before...

 

[webdog]

You'd make a great politician Web. Way to talk circles around the quesiton. You excell at it.

I'm not taking around anything. Do you know what goes through the mind of the reprobate? If you do you could be making quite a bit of money with the psychic friends network...

 

[nunatak]

Conviction (to make to see) and regeneration are not the same thing. God does have the power, authority, and will to convict so that one may then choose to make a conscience decision to come to Him. God does the convicting and the regenerating. But in between there is our choice to come to Him. Regardless of our choice God retains all credit and glory for salvation. For without Him we could never have that choice.

And I will just add that no scripture indicates that God refuses to convict some people and He will never reach out to those who reject Him. God reaches out to all men. Many are called but few are chosen.

I see your point. I also do believe that men must choose to follow Christ. I just don't know how much that choice is influenced by God's grace. I don't believe flesh will glory in His presence. But if God has enabled me to follow Christ by a public choice that I can make, then I make it gladly. To God goes all the glory.

 

[Rippon]

I just don't know how much that choice is influenced by God's grace.

It is ONLY due to God's grace that anyone is saved . Even the word "influence" is too mild of a term to describe it . If you wish to ascribe him all the glory you would not say :"I just don't know how much that choice is influenced by God's grace."

 

[nunatak]

It is ONLY due to God's grace that anyone is saved . Even the word "influence" is too mild of a term to describe it . If you wish to ascribe him all the glory you would not say :"I just don't know how much that choice is influenced by God's grace."

Wow, what a fair post. I know that in my flesh, I would boast if possible. But thanks be to God I can't. My problem is more ignorance, imo, both of the scope and power and sweep of God's grace. And of my own inate tendency to glorify myself. That, I hope, is not my conscious desire.