Salvation & grape juice

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

LOL. Don't even go there. He's going to throw out the London Baptist Confession of 1689, but treat a fable repeated by Josephus as gospel.

Josephus was a noted historian from the time that such was found. It is not a fable.

Those who wrote the 1869 confessions did not live from the time of the 1st Century AD, so their writings don't amount to a hill of beans on the subject of wine.

 

[npetreley]

Josephus was a noted historian from the time that such was found. It is not a fable.

Those who wrote the 1869 confessions did not live from the time of the 1st Century AD, so their writings don't amount to a hill of beans on the subject of wine.

Even if it was true (and I doubt that, but let's say it was for the sake of argument), what you fail to notice from the Jospehus account is that his remarks are about how unusual it was for them to have preserved fruit and WINE for so long. If it was common practice, then it wouldn't be such a big deal.

So I repeat my challenge. Using only what NT people had at their disposal for preserving things, harvest some grapes this fall and serve grape juice at Passover. Let me know how it turns out. If you can't do it, and you can't produce any evidence that they somehow managed to preserve grape juice for months without fermentation, then you'll have learned something useful.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

You are reading into the text that which is not there to support your theory. Nowhere did Josephus say it was unusual, nor did he imply that it was.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Even if it was true (and I doubt that, but let's say it was for the sake of argument), what you fail to notice from the Jospehus account is that his remarks are about how unusual it was for them to have preserved fruit and WINE for so long. If it was common practice, then it wouldn't be such a big deal.

So I repeat my challenge. Using only what NT people had at their disposal for preserving things, harvest some grapes this fall and serve grape juice at Passover. Let me know how it turns out. If you can't do it, and you can't produce any evidence that they somehow managed to preserve grape juice for months without fermentation, then you'll have learned something useful.

Your challenge is idiocy. Even if I did try and was able to preserve the grape juice for a year, using only that which was available in the first century AD, and came back and stated my findings, you would refute it.

 

[npetreley]

Here's the bottom line, HBSMN, and it fits with the OP. I will not judge you with regard to food or drink. If you want to drink grape juice for communion, God bless you in it. If anyone else wants to drink wine for communion, God bless you in it.

For my part, I will use wine if it is left to my choice, because I believe that is what Jesus used. I will overlook your (and DHK's) charges of blasphemy.

 

[EdSutton]

Lot repented of that sin of drunkenness. But there were consequences of that sin... the Moabites and the Ammonites.

I challenge you to find one verse of Scripture that ever says Lot repented, or any other individual in the OT repented, except Job. I'm waiting.

Seems to me that a bunch of OT saints are somehow saved without repenting, in the sense you are claiming.

Oh yeah, God repented, may repent, or did not repent 30 times, as recorded there.

But you happen to be right, that there were consequences of Ammon and Moab, and their descendants.

Ed

 

[Dale-c]

I have written a little song for HBSMN since it is obvious we have exhausted this topic and he is not listening to reason.
Here it is:

My Hope is Built on Nothing Less
Than my own will and abstinence!

I dare not trust the Bible plain,
But Wholly lean on Welch's Name!

Non alcoholic juice is mine!
All other drinks are Satan's wine!
All other drinks are Satan's wine!

 

[Magnetic Poles]

I have written a little song for HBSMN since it is obvious we have exhausted this topic and he is not listening to reason.
Here it is:

I love it...so let's all sing the second verse:

I shall not drink from Satan's cup,
But maybe I'll try Seven Up.

That devil juice won't pass my lips,
(Or maybe I'll just sneak some sips!)

Self righteousness is really fine,
Condemn you all, that job is mine!
Condemn you all, that job is mine!

 

[Dale-c]

Ok, anyone up for a 3rd verse???

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Okay, you got me going. Let's all stand and sing:

Stand up, stand up for juices,
Still sweetest of the vine.
I will not have fermented,
But I'll still call it wine.

Let those who don't believe me,
Burn in eternal hell.
And I'll keep drinking juices,
While sulfur they do smell.

Now let's continue our service in song and flip to page 118, and sing along . . .

Oh Victory in Juices,
My savor forever,
Tho' others may, instead believe,
Salvation cometh free.

No cabernet, no merlot,
Or off to hell will you go.
So do not drink the devil wine,
Or drunkard you will be!

 

[Jim1999]

In Canada, we can purchase non-alcoholic communion wine. I will not drink Welch's grape juice because it is a danger to a diabetic. Neither will I consume alcohol for witness reasons. In a pinch, I might even use water to serve communion if wine was not available. I really think that many are pinching in the dark on this topic.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[mcdirector]

Gentlemen, I'm gonna ask you to please stop your singing (although I cannot hear you, and if you sing like my husband, singing may well be a generous statement :laugh: ).

But this is not the answer. We cannot come to terms here. We knew before we entered this discussion that mutual ground would not be reached. If we were standing together in the foyer having this discussion and decided that we would NEVER agree with a fellow church member, I hope we would just leave.

I Corinthians 13:1-3
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Let's please gain something here by at least keeping our love and kindness in place even in our disagreement.

Humbly submitted.
Bitsy

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Hi Bitsy! My singing probably IS like your hubby's!

Anyway, HBSMN has condemned those who disagree with him about his interpretation to hell, so we were only having a little fun with it. If anyone should examine themselves (besides me, of course), I think he is overdue. This doesn't mean I question his relationship with his creator, only in his self-assured zealotry to say those who have other views are going to hell.

I do appreciate your sweet spirit of grace. Don't change it!

MP

 

[Dale-c]

IT was obvious that no agreement would come.

Personally, I do not believe it wrong to add humor from time to time.
Perhaps this was undo levity but I have contacted HBSMN privately confronting his error and the danger of pride and self righteousness.

He responded that he wasn't in error or self righteous or arrogant and thus it was me that was at fault.

The Lord know I have plenty and I didn't not mean to be an offense to anyone here.

The level of error in HBSMN is, if I may say so, at an intoxicating level.
This is much more than a disagreement among bretheren. I don't really care what one thinks about alcohol.

When someone starts adding to grace and twisting the Bible I do have a problem.
When someone claims to have in themselves the ability to go sinless for relatively log periods of time...well....

There are instances of sarcasm and humor in the Bible.
If you do not believe this is the proper time, then I apologize.

 

[Dale-c]

I do appreciate your sweet spirit of grace. Don't change it!

I agree!
We could all use a dose of her attitude!

 

[mcdirector]

Hi Bitsy! My singing probably IS like your hubby's!

Heaven help us if you ever get together!

Anyway, HBSMN has condemned those who disagree with him about his interpretation to hell, so we were only having a little fun with it. If anyone should examine themselves (besides me, of course), I think he is overdue. This doesn't mean I question his relationship with his creator, only in his self-assured zealotry to say those who have other views are going to hell.

I agree. I too have been condemned, and we do all need to examine ourselves. One of the things I love about thread like this is they send me to the Scripture and research to dig and dig some more. It doesn't get much better than that! I do not like self-righteousness or the questioning of anyone's faith. Present a position and let the facts and the Holy Spirit work. It's amazing what He can do! (I know you agree with me )

My concern is in perception. Sometimes when I do a search on topics that intrique me here, threads from the BB come up. We may be the face of God (or at least the introduction of it) to someone. That is so humbling to me.

I do appreciate your sweet spirit of grace. Don't change it!

MP

Thank you, and I appreciate you taking what I said in the spirit in which I meant it.

Bitsy

 

[mcdirector]

IT was obvious that no agreement would come.

Personally, I do not believe it wrong to add humor from time to time.
Perhaps this was undo levity but I have contacted HBSMN privately confronting his error and the danger of pride and self righteousness.

He responded that he wasn't in error or self righteous or arrogant and thus it was me that was at fault.

The Lord know I have plenty and I didn't not mean to be an offense to anyone here.

The level of error in HBSMN is, if I may say so, at an intoxicating level.
This is much more than a disagreement among bretheren. I don't really care what one thinks about alcohol.

When someone starts adding to grace and twisting the Bible I do have a problem.
When someone claims to have in themselves the ability to go sinless for relatively log periods of time...well....

There are instances of sarcasm and humor in the Bible.
If you do not believe this is the proper time, then I apologize.

Dale, my only concern is that, in this instance, it will be taken as making fun of, not humor. I could be wrong. I teach 8th graders and they frequently point out to me how wrong I am :laugh:

Bitsy

 

[Dale-c]

Dale, my only concern is that, in this instance, it will be taken as making fun of, not humor. I could be wrong. I teach 8th graders and they frequently point out to me how wrong I am

Also important, is to move along and not dwell in this type of humor.

 

[Dale-c]

On a serious note, I just found this on WikiPedia. it was excellent!

In addition to lexical and historical differences,[130][143] moderationism holds that prohibitionism errs by confusing the Christian virtues of temperance and moderation with abstinence and prohibition and by locating the evil in the object that is abused rather in the heart and deeds of the abuser.[112][6] Moreover, moderationists suggest that the prohibitionist and abstentionist positions denigrate God's creation and his good gifts and deny that it is not what goes into a man that makes him evil but what comes out (that is, what he says and does).[37][144] And so, moderationists hold that in banishing wine from communion and dinner tables, prohibitionists and abstentionists go against the witness of the Bible and the church throughout the ages and implicitly adopt a Pharisaical moralism that is at odds with the what moderationists consider the right approach to biblical ethics and the doctrines of sin and sanctification.[145][146][131]

 

[mcdirector]

In my searches too, I have found nothing on the topic before the late 1800s. That's not to say it's not out there. It's just not readily available.