Salvation & grape juice

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

In answer to a question about the bishop and deacons commands...

1 Timothy 3:3 “Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;”
1 Timothy 3:8 “Likewise must the deacons be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;”
Answer:
Some conclude from these two verses that we can drink in moderation, but we must not give ourself to wine, or overindulge in it. Consider the Greek words used for “given” in the two verses above:
Paroinos - 1 Timothy 3:3 - staying near wine.
Prosecho - 1 Timothy 3:8 - pay attention to, apply oneself to, be given to, have regard to, be attached to, to give one self up to, to be addicted to.
In the case of verse 3, the bishop must not even stay near wine. That certainly must imply complete abstinence from alcohol.
In the case of verse 8, the deacon must not become addicted to or attached to drinking much wine. Wine here cannot be alcoholic wine, because only one case of drinking much fermented wine would be sin. Other believers would have to break fellowship with the man in such a case (1 Corinthians 5:11). Most of these were converts from idolatry and were previously used to a life of voluptuousness and sensuality. The dissipated and voluptuous preferred the wine whose strength (potency) had been broken by filter, because it enabled them to drink much without becoming intoxicated. They used various methods to promote thirst. They would continue at times all night at their feasts. Excessive drinking, even of non-alcoholic drinks, was a vice prevalent in the days of Paul, also common - the excessive use of food, but not of an intoxicating kind. Paul is merely guarding the deacons against a vice of the day. Such devotion to any kind of wine would show sensuality unseemly in one holding office in the church. This verse therefore would be admonishing the deacon to guard himself against overindulging in the appetites of the flesh, specifically grape juice. It would be like commanding him to refrain from gluttony.

http://www.bethanybaptist.org.au/not_drink.htm

 

[npetreley]

With the temperance society came a lot of preachers that simply preached what others told them from their stock pile of ignorance. It is no different than those preachers who do not hold fact to the word today and choose to believe the politicians in denominations who seldom study but simply spew out their ignorance in an effort to sound good.

Yeah, I hear you. I've only known one preacher who was as fired up about alcohol as HBSM & DHK, and he had a history of alcoholism in his family, so he probably could only see it as black-and-white. Either you drink to excess and destroy the lives of your family, or you don't touch it at all. In fact, most people who seem to have control issues (as in, they want to control the behavior of others, and overly pride themselves on self-control) seem to come from families of alcoholics. I read somewhere that there's a corellation, but I don't recall the details.

The funny thing about that preacher is that he was incredibly ignorant, theology-wise, for a pastor with a doctorate in theology. He had no clue about the reformation and the theological issues surrounding it. He was a one-trick pastor of the Rick Warren variety. Same sermon every week, different words.

 

[David Lamb]

Study the Word of God. You will find that Lot lost self control after just one drink.

One drink made him drunk.

If you mean Genesis 19, as far as I know (I'm no Hebrew scholar) it doesn't say how much wine Lot drank. For example, verses 31-33:

31 Now the firstborn said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man on the earth to come in to us as is the custom of all the earth.
32 "Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve the lineage of our father."
33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.​

The daughters don't say, "Come, let us make our father have one drink of wine."

 

[EdSutton]

One drink made Lot drunk.

Man, now that had to be some really good stuff, if one swallow (equal to one drink, I would assume) made him, or anyone else for that matter, "drunk"!

And to think, I thought the old (now banned) cough syrup 'Terpin Hydrate with Codeine', colloquially known as "GI Gin" with a 50% alcohol content and a good shot of codeine added, was strong! :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[Bro. Curtis]

That's not good news, for me. I have had several bouts with severe bronchitis. The doctors didn't know they were sending me to hell.

B.T.W., that codeine stuff is a necessary evil. I don't know how anyone could actually enjoy being on that stuff.

 

[EdSutton]

Text taken out of context is pretext.

Best statement I've seen yet, on this thread, upon rereading it all carefully.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Alcohol will send a person hell?

Wow. That is simply amazing.

So how much does it take? One drink? Two drinks? A six pack? :BangHead:

Probably at least a fifth. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Silly me.

Well, that makes two of us so far, in this thread. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

The magic was...get this...honey :laugh:

They used the illustration of fruit being preserved in cans filled with "honey like" syrup. I wonder why there are expiration dates on my cans of fruit then

FTR, honey, once the bees have 'cured' it, never ferments unless additional moisture is added, so something could theoretically be preserved for an indefinite amount of time in honey, if 'sealed'.

I know this as a former beekeeper and honey harvester, who had to give it up, due to increasing allergic reactions to the stings that one will invariably get from the 'pets', especially if one's own body chemistry is annoying to them, as mine was. Even showering just before working them was not enough to counteract the small amount of ammonia my own body produces, and that is a major factor in stings.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

In a pinch, I might even use water to serve communion if wine was not available. I really think that many are pinching in the dark on this topic.

Cheers,

Jim

I believe Martin Luther said he would use German beer for the same. Or at least I've seen that written. I don't speak or read German so cannot attest to the complete truthfulness of this, however.

Ed

 

[npetreley]

I believe Martin Luther said he would use German beer for the same. Or at least I've seen that written. I don't speak or read German so cannot attest to the complete truthfulness of this, however.

That would be interesting. I know Martin Luther had no way of knowing this, but the low alcoholic content of beer would not kill off all the yeast. If I recall correctly, the yeast dies when the concentration of alcohol reaches about 10%, which is normal for wine but not for beer. I'm not sure how beer is made, so I don't know how they stop the fermentation process at the lower alcohol content. There are several ways to do it - but I don't know which one is used.

 

[gb93433]

In answer to a question about the bishop and deacons commands...
http://www.bethanybaptist.org.au/not_drink.htm

The fact is that if you drink too much water it will kill you also.

 

[Salamander]

The facts are that "a little wine" is just that.

The little wine is a mixture somewhat like syrup that DID contain some alcohol due to the fermentation of that syrup, much like Nyquil.

It is proven that only a small amount of alcohol need be ingested to cause a thinning of the blood to then make the heart beat faster to allow the blood to flow faster in the body. That will allow the medicines contained in the admixture to effect the body faster.

What bothers me is at our men's banquet for Father's Day, the chocolate icing on the desert cake contained chocolate liquor in it, now that is blasphemous!

I hadn't tasted alcohol like that since I got saved over 14 years ago. I was surprised no one else noticed, but it was very onvious and what I had always thought tasted "bad" actually had a deceptive "appeal".

From some one that alcohol had a rather large part in my going astray, that scares me. But I do know that the Lord will continue to sustain me and the temptation immediately left me the split-second I realized it.:jesus:

 

[DHK]

It is clear Lot was drunk from the first drink. That is my point. People may think that one drink does not affect them, but it does.

And that addresses the first post, for since the Word of God shows one drink causes drunkenness, and the Word of God states no drunkard will inherit the Kingdom of God, Salvation is not found in grape juice or alcohol but alcoholin the life of a believer shows that one believed in vain.

IOW, drinking grape juice will not send a person to hell... but alcohol will.

HBSMN.
This is your quote all the way back on page one.
First you cannot prove that Lot got drunk from just one drink. No matter how you dissect that passage it isn't there. Please give up on that kind of eisigesis. You are standing on sinking sand. Your premise is faulty. Both from the Word of God, from experience, and from history, we all know that one drink cannot make a person drunk. You just look foolish asserting this point. It is wrong on all three counts.

Second. Salvation does not hinge on the drinkiing of alcohol. It never did. We do not believe in a works salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith and by faith alone. It has nothing to do with the consumption of alcohol, just like it has nothing to do with smoking cigarettes. As one man said concerning smoking--It may not send you to hell; it will just make you smell like you came from there. Alcoholic beverages cannot send a person to hell. The believers at Corinth came to the Lord's Table drunk. Paul rebuked them for it, but never suggested that they were unsaved.

I do believe in abstinence. I do believe that driniking is wrong. But it has nothing to do with salvation, and the reasons given must be disconnected from salvation. Show from the Bible why drinking alcoholic beverages is wrong. Give sound Biblical principles. To say that it is connnected with salvation is foolishness.
Again, there is nothing in the context that shows that Lot had one drink. In fact the daughters of Lot went out of their way to make sure that he had enough wine to "make" him drunk. That certainly was more than one drink. Furthermore he was declared a just and righteous man by Peter. When did that righteousness come. Ater he repented from his drunkenness? No! Long before that. Abraham pleaded with God that if there were ten righteous people in the city of Sodom--would he destroy the city of Sodom for ten righteous people. God would not destroy the city for ten righteous people. But there were not ten righteous people. There were less than that. Instead, two angels came into the city and took the righteous people out of the city (Lot and his family) and then destroyed the city. Lot was declared righteous before the city was destroyed, before he got drunk.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

HBSMN.
This is your quote all the way back on page one.
First you cannot prove that Lot got drunk from just one drink. No matter how you dissect that passage it isn't there. Please give up on that kind of eisigesis. You are standing on sinking sand. Your premise is faulty. Both from the Word of God, from experience, and from history, we all know that one drink cannot make a person drunk. You just look foolish asserting this point. It is wrong on all three counts.

I respectfully disagree. I know many who have gotten drunk off of their first beer. Alcohol travels through the bloodstram and attacks brain cells... yes, even one glass.

The Word of God does not say they gave Lot drinks that night, but drink. If Lot was not accustomed to alcohol, one drink would be all it took for him to lose self control.

He may have drank more than one drink, but self control was lost after the one drink. He was no longer temperate, as evidenced by the repeated offense the next night.

Second. Salvation does not hinge on the drinkiing of alcohol. It never did. We do not believe in a works salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith and by faith alone. It has nothing to do with the consumption of alcohol, just like it has nothing to do with smoking cigarettes. As one man said concerning smoking--It may not send you to hell; it will just make you smell like you came from there. Alcoholic beverages cannot send a person to hell. The believers at Corinth came to the Lord's Table drunk. Paul rebuked them for it, but never suggested that they were unsaved.

I do believe in abstinence. I do believe that driniking is wrong. But it has nothing to do with salvation, and the reasons given must be disconnected from salvation. Show from the Bible why drinking alcoholic beverages is wrong. Give sound Biblical principles. To say that it is connnected with salvation is foolishness.

Paul did not have to tell them that it would send them to hell. He had already done that in Chapter 6 of the same Epistle when he stated:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

The fact remains, drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God,... so ultimately, the alcohol will send a person to hell.

 

[gb93433]

What bothers me is at our men's banquet for Father's Day, the chocolate icing on the desert cake contained chocolate liquor in it, now that is blasphemous!

If nobody noticed doesn't that tell you something?

Teh funny thing is that my parents were grape growers for several years. The winery would give us bottles of wine and it would sit in our home sometimes for over a year. My dad would pull it out if someone came over and he knew they liked wine. We did not care much for wine. I do not of any students whose parents were grape growers who ever got drunk. It was almost always the city kids who were curious. We did not need to be curious because it was there in front of us. Sometimes a friend would come over and point out that the wine was out in the open and ask if he could taste it. I never allowed any friend to even taste it. The reason why is because they would look at it much differently than I did. Often they wouild look at it as if they were eager to drink it. I was not. In fact I never really cared for it. Not one in my family has ever been drunk or even close to being drunk. We have seen what happens to drunks.

 

[npetreley]

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

The fact remains, drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God,... so ultimately, the alcohol will send a person to hell.

A person who drinks a glass of wine is not the same thing as a drunkard. As DHK said, you don't get drunk from a single glass of wine. Try it for yourself and you'll find out.

Drunkenness is definitely labelled as sinful in the Bible. Being a drunkard means you are continually getting drunk.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Salvation is not based on works. If it were, nobody, not even HBSMN, SFIC, or anyone else could be saved.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The wine that the daughters gave to Lot certainly must have been strong. They 'slipped him a mickey... if you will'.

The Word records that they 'made' him to drink. They connived to deceive Lot with that which Solomon said deceives... wine.

The instance of just Lot being given the wine cannot be given as a sure view that even if one who calls himself a Christian drinks moderately, it will not cause him to miss heaven.

Lot drank the wine unknowingly. He did not call for wine and drink it. He was deceived into drinking it.

 

[npetreley]

The fact is that if you drink too much water it will kill you also.

You can also get "drunk" on water. No, it's not the same chemical action as getting drunk on alcohol, but it's the same result. If you dilute your electrolytes enough, you impair your brain's ability to work properly. You will get confused and have slurred speech - the same symptoms as drunkenness. And if you keep diluting your electrolytes with more water after that, you'll die.

I don't know anyone who deliberately gets drunk on water, but that's the sin - deliberately getting drunk on something, no matter what the substance may be (alcohol, drugs, whatever).