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Salvation & grape juice

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webdog said:
Lot was also deemed righteous and godly. Last time I checke righteous people didn't go to hell (unless you believe in the ME garbage)

Lot repented of that sin of drunkenness. But there were consequences of that sin... the Moabites and the Ammonites.

Paul recorded that no drunkard will inherit the Kingdom of God. Moses recorded that it only takes one drink to get drunk.

Wine is a mocker and it deceives. Just because one thinks they are not drunk does not mean they are not drunk. They are deceived by the one drink.
 

webdog

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His Blood Spoke My Name said:
It is possible to store grape juice and keep it fresh. The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus of the first century AD recorded fresh fruits and juices that were over 100 years old and without any intoxicating content at all.
Urban legend...
 

npetreley

New Member
His Blood Spoke My Name said:
The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus of the first century AD recorded fresh fruits and juices that were over 100 years old and without any intoxicating content at all.
Reference please? Also, try it yourself and see what you get.

I just searched the works of Josephus. The word juice only occurs twice, and it is in the context of tree sap that is used for ointment.
 
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Snitzelhoff

New Member
Bro. Curtis said:
If one believes New Testament wine is grape juice, are they more saved than someone who doesn't ?

Apparently:

It is clear to many, dan. Many just don't want to receive the truth.

You have twisted the Word, as I have showed. And you continue to deny it.

To claim Jesus drank wine is blasphemous.

You must only be reading what you want to read, or are blind to the truth.

All who are saved have the truth MP, others refuse to hear it.

Again it is blasphemous to do so. (that is, use wine to represent Christ's blood in the Lord's Supper

It is you and others who want to blaspheme the Lord by falsely putting alcohol into His hand as the Pharisee's did when He walked this earth.

The christ you are presenting in this room is not the Christ that died on the cross as the sacrificial Lamb that taketh away the sins of the world.

If one is looking for a christ who drinks alcohol, and condones the drinking of alcohol, one is not going to know the Christ of the Bible if He comes to their door.

And guess what, He won't know them either.

By authority of the Scripture I can tell you who will recognize Him and who will not. Those who look for a Jesus who is pictured differently than the one who died for mankind, those who want the one who died to save man from sin to allow sin, will not recognize Him until it is too late... if they wait until His coming in clouds, they will be lieve too late.

Curtis, we cannot prove it to you, because your heart is hardened to the truth here

In saying that Jesus drank an alcoholic wine, they are not only blaspheming the Lord...

It is the Word of God that has judged you. You call yourselves christian and don't even follow His example. Christ never condoned drinking alcohol, nor did He drink it, yet you do the opposite and claim to be following Him?

(in response to my saying that I stopped reading an article when it said that "new wine" was non-alcoholic grape juice) Of course you did... you don't want to receive sound doctrine.

My posts may not line up with your gospel, but they are in line with the Word of God.

So...

Apparently, even if you don't drink, if you think that NT wine was always wine, then you're blaspheming the Lord, don't want to receive the truth, don't want to receive sound doctrine, are of a hardened heart, ad nauseam.
 

webdog

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Now that we have all of HBSMN's comments in one post, this thread can be closed...
 

npetreley

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webdog said:
Now that we have all of HBSMN's comments in one post, this thread can be closed...

:laugh: Nah, he wants to repeat them at least 20 times.

Yup, it's urban legend. I just searched the works of Josephus for juice, wine, etc. Nothing. Not a hint of any preserved grape juice for any amount of time. I guess it's par for the course to make up facts to support such an unsupportable claim.
 

Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
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THREE PAGES ALLREADY ???!!!!??!?!?!!?


Man. All thru church I was saying, "BAD brother Curtis, BAD brother Curtis"....

Sorry folks, just want to know where I'm going when I croak, because I OBVIOUSLY can't trust what's in my K.J.V.


Yeah, shut her down. Sorry I started this.

I will say at least Linda64 put up a well thought out response.

It's almost enough to drive one to drink.
 

webdog

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npetreley said:
:laugh: Nah, he wants to repeat them at least 20 times.

Yup, it's urban legend. I just searched the works of Josephus for juice, wine, etc. Nothing. Not a hint of any preserved grape juice for any amount of time. I guess it's par for the course to make up facts to support such an unsupportable claim.
It's funny, because a site on the net claimed Josephus found fruit 100 years old...and it was as ripe as the day it was plucked! I would say maybe he had a few too many! :)
 

Snitzelhoff

New Member
webdog said:
Now that we have all of HBSMN's comments in one post, this thread can be closed...

To be fair, only the majority of the comments came from HBSMN. There were others who made a few of those. I didn't copy the names. Anyone who must know who said what can look through the drinking thread.

But, from HBSMN's latest comments, it's only actually drinking that will render one unsaved; he hasn't mentioned believing that wine in the NT always means "wine".

Michael
 
npetreley said:
:laugh: Nah, he wants to repeat them at least 20 times.

Yup, it's urban legend. I just searched the works of Josephus for juice, wine, etc. Nothing. Not a hint of any preserved grape juice for any amount of time. I guess it's par for the course to make up facts to support such an unsupportable claim.

Apparently you did not search good enough. Josephus records no less than 44 instances of wine in his writings.

In his 'The Jewish Wars' 7.292, we read the following:

The Jewish War 7:295-297 As for the stores laid up within this fortress, it was still more wonderful on account of its splendour and long continuance; 296 for here was laid up grain in large quantities, and such as would subsist men for a long time; here was also wine and oil in abundance, with all kinds of vegetables and dates heaped up together; 297 all which Eleazar found there when he and his Sicarii got possession of the fortress by treachery. These fruits were also fresh and fully ripe, and no way inferior to such fruits recently harvested, although they were little short of a hundred years {a} from the storage of these provisions [by Herod], till the place was taken by the Romans; nay, indeed, when the Romans got possession of those fruits that were left, they found them not rotted all that while;
 
Snitzelhoff said:
To be fair, only the majority of the comments came from HBSMN. There were others who made a few of those. I didn't copy the names. Anyone who must know who said what can look through the drinking thread.

But, from HBSMN's latest comments, it's only actually drinking that will render one unsaved; he hasn't mentioned believing that wine in the NT always means "wine".

Michael
Wine in the New Testament as well as the Old was either fermented, or non-fermented. Context will show which. Of course many don't care about the context. They just want to disprove the Word of God.
 

npetreley

New Member
His Blood Spoke My Name said:
Apparently you did not search good enough. Josephus records no less than 44 instances of wine in his writings.

In his 'The Jewish Wars' 7.292, we read the following:

Oh, well it's obvious where I went wrong. I searched for anything that seemed like preserved grape juice. When I saw "wine" I mistakenly thought it meant "wine". Silly me.
 

npetreley

New Member
webdog said:
It's funny, because a site on the net claimed Josephus found fruit 100 years old...and it was as ripe as the day it was plucked! I would say maybe he had a few too many! :)

I wish they had shared what kind of magic they used. I'll bet fruit growers of today would really appreciate it. Right now they have to pick fruit while it is unripe just so it won't spoil on the way to the grocery store.
 
If we continue reading The Jewish War, it may shed some light on how the wines and fruits were preserved...

The Jewish War 7:297-301 297 all which Eleazar found there when he and his Sicarii got possession of the fortress by treachery. These fruits were also fresh and fully ripe, and no way inferior to such fruits recently harvested, although they were little short of a hundred years {a} from the storage of these provisions [by Herod], till the place was taken by the Romans; nay, indeed, when the Romans got possession of those fruits that were left, they found them not rotted all that while; 298 nor should we be mistaken, if we supposed that the air was here the cause of their enduring so long, this fortress being so high, and so free from the mixture of all earth-born and muddy particles of matter. 299 There was also found here a large quantity of all sorts of weapons of war, which had been treasured up by that king, and were sufficient for ten thousand men: there was cast iron, and brass, and tin, which show that he had taken much pains to have all things here ready for the greatest occasions; 300 for the report goes how Herod thus prepared this fortress on his own account, as a refuge against two kinds of danger; the one for fear of the multitude of the Jews, lest they should depose him and restore their former kings to the government; the other danger was greater and more terrible, which arose from Cleopatra, queen of Egypt, 301 who did not conceal her intentions, but spoke often to Antony, and desired him to kill Herod, and entreated him to bestow the kingdom of Judea upon her.
 

webdog

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npetreley said:
I wish they had shared what kind of magic they used. I'll bet fruit growers of today would really appreciate it. Right now they have to pick fruit while it is unripe just so it won't spoil on the way to the grocery store.
The magic was...get this...honey :laugh:

They used the illustration of fruit being preserved in cans filled with "honey like" syrup. I wonder why there are expiration dates on my cans of fruit then :confused:
 
Josephus does not record what allowed Herod to store them for so long while keeping their freshness... other than it may be due to being sealed from contaminants.

But the fact remains... storage of such was done. And they were kept fresh.
 

webdog

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His Blood Spoke My Name said:
Josephus does not record what allowed Herod to store them for so long while keeping their freshness... other than it may be due to being sealed from contaminants.

But the fact remains... storage of such was done. And they were kept fresh.
So egyptian mummies that are preserved still rot...but pieces of fuit keep the same freshness and ripeness as the day they were plucked? OOOKKKAAAYYY.....
 
I did not write the 1st century history, webdog. It happened and one from the 1st century recorded it.

Just because you want to deny it happened does not make it fiction. It happened just as Flavius Josephus recorded it.

If it did not happen like Josephus recorded, why is there no other historian from his era that refuted those writings? Surely there would have to be someone who wrote against it from that time.
 

npetreley

New Member
His Blood Spoke My Name said:
Josephus does not record what allowed Herod to store them for so long while keeping their freshness... other than it may be due to being sealed from contaminants.

But the fact remains... storage of such was done. And they were kept fresh.

Fine! Then you'll have no problem with my challenge. Harvest some grapes this fall, and using only what NT people had at their disposal to preserve things, serve grape juice at Passover. Let me know how it turns out.
 

npetreley

New Member
webdog said:
So egyptian mummies that are preserved still rot...but pieces of fuit keep the same freshness and ripeness as the day they were plucked? OOOKKKAAAYYY.....

LOL. Don't even go there. He's going to throw out the London Baptist Confession of 1689, but treat a fable repeated by Josephus as gospel.
 
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