Can you find ANYWHERE in Scripture where the epitaph "HOLY Father" is ever applied to ANY man on earth at ANY time on earth?
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Salvation in Catholic and Baptist Theology
- Thread starter JarJo
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Can you find ANYWHERE in Scripture where the epitaph "HOLY Father" is ever applied to ANY man on earth at ANY time on earth?
Ok I get it now. There are a lot of things at work in us:
1. "I"
2. inward man
3. old man
4. new man
5. sin
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Can you find anywhere in scripture the epitaph "Mr. President"? at any time on earth?
Yes, Exodus 22:31
"You are to be my holy people"
This included fathers. Thus, the holy people included holy mothers, holy fathers, holy children, etc.
Are you serious? First find the epitaph "Mr. President" in the scripture and then we have a basis for discussion. "Holy Father" is found in scripture and it is ONLY applied to God and NEVER to any man on earth.
"As I said before, it should make you cringe to call the Catholic leader “Holy Father.”
The title “Holy Father” is taken from the Latin Beatissimus Pater, “Most Blessed Father”, which refers to his office as the supreme spiritual Father of the whole Church …(Lumen Gentium #22).
Here are some examples in the bible where it speaks of the apostles as spiritual fathers (1 Cor 4:17, 1 Tim 1:2, 2 Tim 1:2, 2 Tim 2:1, Phi 2:22, Titus 1:4, Philem. 10).
The title “Holy Father” is taken from the Latin Beatissimus Pater, “Most Blessed Father”, which refers to his office as the supreme spiritual Father of the whole Church …(Lumen Gentium #22).
Here are some examples in the bible where it speaks of the apostles as spiritual fathers (1 Cor 4:17, 1 Tim 1:2, 2 Tim 1:2, 2 Tim 2:1, Phi 2:22, Titus 1:4, Philem. 10).
Pleeeease give us a break!!! Every child of God is holy but this text does not use it as an epitaph of direct address does it? When you can find anyone in scripture directly addressed as "HOLY sister" or "Holy brother" or "Holy father" then we have a basis for discussion, but you cannot!
The Pope is usping a title of address that scriptures (Jesus) gives only to God the Father in heaven and NEVER to any man on earth at ANY time.
Again, this is begging the question. The apostles are NEVER addressed by other men as "HOLY father." That title of direct address is ONLY given to God the Father and NEVER to any man any time anywhere on earth.
Catholics blaspheme God when they call the Pope "holy father"
BTW Who is really the "MOST blessed Father" in your mind??????
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Correct! Now, trace where sin originates within you by looking at Romans 7:15-25. Does it originate from "I"? Does it originate from the "inward man/new man" or does it originate from the "law of sin" that indwells the flesh?
Does "I" and the inward man HATE sin even in the act of sin according to the text?
Is the problem LOVE of sin by "I" or lack of power to overrule sin by "I"?
What aspect of your human nature is actually born of God? Has you flesh and blood body been born again?(Jn. 3:6). Or is it an internal aspect that has been born of God? Isn't it the "new man/inward man" that has been born of God?
Here you go, holy people and brothers and sisters in the same sentence:
Colossians 1:2 "To God’s holy people in Colossae, the faithful brothers and sisters in Christ: Grace and peace to you from God our Father."
So it's okay to call other Christians holy.
The problem here for you is that ALL Christians are EQUALLY holy and NONE are ever addressed as "Holy Father" must less "MOST Holy Father."
No priest in the Old Testament, not even the High Priest, No apostle, no Bishop in New Testament Scripture is ever addressed "Holy Father" by others much less "MOST holy Father."
The Pope is blaspheming God by taking that title from men and all who address him as "Holy Father" are blaspheming God and particular all who dare address him as "MOST Holy Father" are blasphemers.
No one in scripture is ever addressed directly by men as "Holy Father" but One and that is God the Father.
BTW not to change the subject but the text you cite proves that all LIVING Christians are "hagnoi" = saints not merely departed Christians and BTW ALL departed Christians are called "saints" (hagnoi) as well. So much for Rome sainting people - another blasphemous act that usurps God.
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So do you actually believe that we equate the pope with God? Or is this just a dispute over titles and words that have multiple senses and meanings?
When a catholic says "most holy father" do you believe that person is attributing the qualities of God to the pope?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Yes I am serious. As you know I've traveled the world. In most 3rd world countries tribal leaders or village leaders or town leaders are often referred to as Father. It's an honorific like Mr President. Holy Father is a title position but doesn't equate a man with God. And by the way the verse you use you never apply to your parental title of fathers nor do you take away the title from John Hancock, George Washington, etc. founding fathers. Therefore you know as well as I that Jesus is using Hyperbole.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
After all we are a people set apart for God's specific purpose which holy means.
We are not talking about the cultures of the world but about the only Biblical use of "holy Father".
Even as a hyperbole this is NEVER used to address ANYONE in scripture but ONE and that is God the Father. The Holy Spirit never led any writer of scripture to address any human or non-human as "Holy Father" much less the "most" blasphemeous address "MOST Holy Father."
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Yes, ALL of God's children are EQUALLY holy and there is NONE among them ever addressed "Holy Father" much less "MOST holy Father." Not even Jesus is addressed as "Holy Father" as a man and yet Rome exalts the pope over Jesus by the use of this direct address.
Tell me, why don't you call him "God" as well because the term "God" is used to describe men (Psa. 86)?????
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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
God in our vernacular is associated with only one deity. I could not use that for someone else however as I said in the post before the one you quoted Father is commonly used. Tribal elders are called fathers, city leaders are called father, my biological male parent is called father, the signers of the declaration of independences are called father. Holy Means Set Apart. Thus Holy Father or Set apart elder/leader is totally appropriate.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I hate to break it to you but the bible is writen in a cultural text. And... I know this will hurt... but I must be truthful... It wasn't an Anglo-saxon culture it was writen in. In fact Most writers of scripture were a semetic people with dark skin and dark hair. And unless you know Jews it is common for them to use Hyperbole even to this day. Ancient Judea was not a microcosm of the United States. So Jesus used his language (primarily Aramaic) to get across his points and at time like in this case he used hyperbole. Scriptures say we are a holy people a Holy Priesthood. Nothing wrong with either title and nothing wrong with the title father either. Unless, you want to be consistent and insist your children stop calling you father. No longer refer to the founders of the United States as Founding Fathers. In fact, take it out of the dictonary all together. But you can't be that consistent or honest can you?
Would you address him as "God" since "God" is used in scripture for men according to Jesus himself (Psa. 86)?
TS objection that "God" would be inappropriate in OUR CULTURE is rediculous as that demands we should not obey anything in Scripture that might be contrary to our culture or interpret differently by our culture. Think of the absurdity of that line of reasoning if applied to anything objected by your current culture that is Biblical????????????
So, our venacular trumps the Holy Spirit's choice of terms? So our culture determines what in the Bible is acceptable and not acceptable??
Heathen cultures also worship men as gods, so why not call ourselves "gods" as Psalm 86 uses "gods" to decribe men. Isn't that the god of secular humanism? Seems to be very compatable.
Your argument is rediculous and if followed consistent would make culture rather than the Bible or tradition or the Catholic Church as final in authority.
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