Saved, Lost, Saved Again.

[steaver]

elo...

Jesus raised Himself from the grave, just as He lay down His own life to take it up again. Like I said, He is eternal, Infinite. His human body died, just like we do - that He would conquer death with His resurrection. He was raised by His Spirit - His body form - just like Lazurus was.

You sound like one of those who believe Jesus is the Son, Jesus is the Father, and Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

elo...

That is when Mary Magdelene saw Him. He went to Heaven at that point,

So He went to heaven the day He died physically with the thief ("Today thou shalt be with me in paradise). Then He returned to His body, ressurrected and spoke with Mary. Then He went back to heaven to get glorified. Then He returned to earth again. Then He later done His "ascention" into heaven.

That is quite alot of spin just to keep your paradise=heaven theory alive, don't you think?

elo...

Jesus commends His Spirit to God,

To God the Father , correct? "Commends" it to the Father. Entrusts in unto the Father's hands, right? Or was Jesus just talking to Himself?

elo...

He descends into hell/hades/grave - this is not satan's abode - it is the place of the dead.

So "hell", the "heart of the earth" is the tomb in which a dead body is laid? This is what you are teaching? There is no alertness by the spirit of the dead even though Jesus said the rich man could see paradise "from hell"?

You think too much instead of accepting the Word of God by faith. It is going to be a mystery, whether you want to accept that or not. This is why we walk by faith. If God had wanted us to know this process, He would have told us in minute detail.

Oh, I think too much and God has not given details like "heart of the earth" and "hell" and "paradise" and "Abraham's bosom"?

It appears you want me to accept the word of elo by faith. This I cannot do, but I will accept your POV if it is sustained by scripture.

If your POV is correct then you can answer me this question...the begger went to paradise, Abraham's bosom. The rich man saw Father Abraham in paradise from "hell" and asked for a couple of things. Abraham said there was a great gulf fixed between hell and paradise.

We know at this time from scripture that those in hell can see paradise. We know that hell is a place that holds the condemned spirits and they are alert of their surroundings.

How is it then you determined that "hell" is just the grave where the lifeless body is laid?

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />elo...

Jesus raised Himself from the grave, just as He lay down His own life to take it up again. Like I said, He is eternal, Infinite. His human body died, just like we do - that He would conquer death with His resurrection. He was raised by His Spirit - His body form - just like Lazurus was.

You sound like one of those who believe Jesus is the Son, Jesus is the Father, and Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

**************

eloidalmanutha:
If you believe that Jesus is God, then it's no problem at all. Let's look at these three scripts:

Jhn 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ , the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him,
18 the eyes of your mind having been enlightened, for you to know what is the hope of His calling, and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us, the ones believing according to the working of His mighty strength
20 which He worked in Christ in raising Him from the dead ; yea, He seated Him at His right hand in the heavenlies, Psa. 110:1

elo...

That is when Mary Magdelene saw Him. He went to Heaven at that point,

So He went to heaven the day He died physically with the thief ("Today thou shalt be with me in paradise). Then He returned to His body, ressurrected and spoke with Mary. Then He went back to heaven to get glorified. Then He returned to earth again. Then He later done His "ascention" into heaven.

That is quite alot of spin just to keep your paradise=heaven theory alive, don't you think?

***************

eloidalmanutha:

If you believe that the spirit is separate from the body, no, it's not quite a spin. Obviously, Jesus was resurrected in His flesh body - like when Lazurus was resurrected. That body could not go through walls or disappear, so somehow Jesus body had to be glorified between the time He saw Mary Magdelene and the time He saw the women later. Simple semantics.

elo...

Jesus commends His Spirit to God,

To God the Father , correct? "Commends" it to the Father. Entrusts in unto the Father's hands, right? Or was Jesus just talking to Himself?

**************

eloidalmanutha:

commits, deposits, to God, yes - Jesus Spirit was with God, His body was dead.

elo...

He descends into hell/hades/grave - this is not satan's abode - it is the place of the dead.

So "hell", the "heart of the earth" is the tomb in which a dead body is laid? This is what you are teaching? There is no alertness by the spirit of the dead even though Jesus said the rich man could see paradise "from hell"?

**************

eloidalmanutha:

the spirit was separate from the physical body. As I had stated before, Lazurus must have had some "form" that the rich man could see him. So yes, when our spirit is with God there is communication and recognition. Yes, hell in this case means grave - that is the Greek definition of hades. Jesus' body was in hell. His Spirit was in Heaven until He was raised up, His Spirit returning to the body that had died.

1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

You think too much instead of accepting the Word of God by faith. It is going to be a mystery, whether you want to accept that or not. This is why we walk by faith. If God had wanted us to know this process, He would have told us in minute detail.

Oh, I think too much and God has not given details like "heart of the earth" and "hell" and "paradise" and "Abraham's bosom"?

It appears you want me to accept the word of elo by faith. This I cannot do, but I will accept your POV if it is sustained by scripture.

If your POV is correct then you can answer me this question...the begger went to paradise, Abraham's bosom. The rich man saw Father Abraham in paradise from "hell" and asked for a couple of things. Abraham said there was a great gulf fixed between hell and paradise.

We know at this time hell can see paradise from this scripture. We know that hell is a place that holds the condemned spirits and they are alert of their surroundings.

How is it then you determined that "hell" is just the grave where the lifeless body is laid?

******************

eloidalmanutha:

because that is the definition of hell in this case.

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

hell - strong's greek hades #86:

1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions

2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead

3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell


</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[steaver]

Getting back to what you believe about the term "believed on Him" in the bible(that it means "born of God" always, regardless of context).

Thomas was a disciple of Christ. Would you say Thomas "believed" Christ's word?

If "yes" is your answer, then you believe Thomas had been saved, born of God, born of the Spirit of God. Is this correct?

Then we have Thomas denying his belief in Jesus any further after he sees Jesus die. He no longer "believes". He demands that he will not believe unless he sees Jesus alive again with his own eyes and gets to touch Him.

Jesus appears to him and wha-la Thomas believes "again".

So if he was born of God the first time he "believed", and then he stopped "believing", and then he "believed again", then didn't he in fact get saved/born again, became lost, and then got saved/born again, again?

How do you coinside your belief with Thomas' testimony?

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
Getting back to what you believe about the term "believed on Him" in the bible(that it means "born of God" always, regardless of context).

Thomas was a disciple of Christ. Would you say Thomas "believed" Christ's word?

If "yes" is your answer, then you believe Thomas had been saved, born of God, born of the Spirit of God. Is this correct?

Then we have Thomas denying his belief in Jesus any further after he sees Jesus die. He no longer "believes". He demands that he will not believe unless he sees Jesus alive again with his own eyes and gets to touch Him.

Jesus appears to him and wha-la Thomas believes "again".

So if he was born of God the first time he "believed", and then he stopped "believing", and then he "believed again", then didn't he in fact get saved/born again, became lost, and then got saved/born again, again?

How do you coinside your belief with Thomas' testimony?

God Bless!

I think this is called going over ground already covered. I don't believe that you have an understanding of salvation, to be honest.

ok - here goes again - Thomas doubted that Jesus had risen. He did not doubt that Jesus was the Messiah. I do not believe you can say that Thomas got "unsaved" because He doubted. We all doubt at times - get real

 

[steaver]

We all doubt at times - get real

I must be special then. It has been 32 years and i haven't doubted Jesus is Risen yet!

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Can one be saved without believing in the ressurrection? I thought that was a must do.

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> We all doubt at times - get real

I must be special then. It has been 32 years and i haven't doubted Jesus is Risen yet!

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]well, God has no favorites. Thomas was not the only disciple who doubted, btw. And yes, I doubted at first - doubted my salvation. I was confused and troubled because I did not understand at first. Since those early days, I have not doubted, by the grace of God.

Matt 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
Can one be saved without believing in the ressurrection? I thought that was a must do.

God Bless!

God's grace, plain and simple. The disciples did not understand. It was a shock. Even Peter and John did not get it after they ran to the tomb. When Mary Mag ran to get them, they scoffed at her. Read the accounts of the resurrection - even Mary Magdelene didn't get it at first - she thought Jesus was the gardener - like the disciples on the Emmaus Rd. didn't get it either .......
get real - read The Book

 

[steaver]

eloidalmanutha:

because that is the definition of hell in this case.

This would explain alot for me and could change my POV. Can you point me to some commentaries that touch on this passage? I always heard that Jesus went to the place of the condemned spirits while He was seperated from his body that lied in the grave and preached to them (not that they could change their condemnation somehow). So I figured that "hell" foretold in the Psalms was this place. You say it is just the grave. Is this mainstream Christian theology or does it go both ways? What is the consenses among Christian circles?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

get real - read The Book

Why do you imply that I have not read God's Word?

Romans 10 says..."That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead , thou shalt be saved". (see, I read the book)

Doesn't the preaching of the Gospel include the sacrificial death(blood sacrifice), burial and ressurrection of Jesus Christ?

Can one be saved without believing Jesus was ressurrected?

Why does this question bother you? It is just a question. My appologies if i am not on your level of obtained knowledge of Scripture. Taking pokes at me is not going to teach me anything. How about letting the fruits of the Spirit shine through a bit

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> eloidalmanutha:

because that is the definition of hell in this case.

This would explain alot for me and could change my POV. Can you point me to some commentaries that touch on this passage? I always heard that Jesus went to the place of the condemned spirits while He was seperated from his body that lied in the grave and preached to them (not that they could change their condemnation somehow). So I figured that "hell" foretold in the Psalms was this place. You say it is just the grave. Is this mainstream Christian theology or does it go both ways? What is the consenses among Christian circles?

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]I was raised in mainstream christianity and was taught that Jesus went to hellfire for 3 days. I never heard of the condemend spirits thing. Then someone pointed out to me that the word hell "needed" to be looked at in the Greek - that's when I found it means the grave, not in hell like where satan would go.

the word for hell in the Psalms text is sheol, or place of the dead also. sheol is hebrew for grave or place of the dead, hades is greek for same - at least that's what I understand at this point. gehenna - used in the NT would refer to hellfire and damnation.

as far as preaching to dead people, or spirits in hell, I do not believe Peter was referring to that, although that seems to be some kind of standard interp of his useage. I tend to go with those held captive in sin - pre salvation - my opinion there is no 2nd chance for people once they have died. there are other explanations based on one's perspective.

I am not one much for commentaries, but you can probably do some research on google.com. commentaries can be helpful I suppose, I just think they can be denominationally influenced and that bothers me - and people tend to get way too dependent on them.

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> get real - read The Book

Why do you imply that I have not read God's Word?

Romans 10 says..."That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead , thou shalt be saved". (see, I read the book)

Doesn't the preaching of the Gospel include the sacrificial death(blood sacrifice), burial and ressurrection of Jesus Christ?

Can one be saved without believing Jesus was ressurrected?

Why does this question bother you? It is just a question. My appologies if i am not on your level of obtained knowledge of Scripture. Taking pokes at me is not going to teach me anything. How about letting the fruits of the Spirit shine through a bit

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Because it is obvious that you have not looked at the resurrection or at least read the account recently. Yes, we must believe in the resurrection of Jesus - that is foundational. But the disciples are getting new info here. They are unaware that Jesus is going to be raised from the dead. It was not until the angel at the tomb appeared to them that they recalled His Words. That is why I say it was God's grace that they stayed the path.

when you look at the accounts of the ascension, it is even more astounding, because some of them still doubted - yet they waited for 50 days for Pentecost and were filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[steaver]

elo...

Then someone pointed out to me that the word hell "needed" to be looked at in the Greek - that's when I found it means the grave, not in hell like where satan would go.

I don't know elo, I thought maybe you had something there but when I checked out the account of the "rich man in hell lifting up his eyes to see Abraham" it is "hades". So how do we deal with that?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Jhn 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Jhn 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

I was wondering why Jesus had to give the disciples the Holy Ghost for a second time? You did say that pre-ressurrection believers were "born-again(indwellment of the Spirit)" just like post ressurrection believers are, right?

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />elo...

Then someone pointed out to me that the word hell "needed" to be looked at in the Greek - that's when I found it means the grave, not in hell like where satan would go.

I don't know elo, I thought maybe you had something there but when I checked out the account of the "rich man in hell lifting up his eyes to see Abraham" it is "hades". So how do we deal with that?

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]oh, I don't know I did some surfing and it looks like hades has other definitions depending which perspective one is coming from. Some say it is the place of disembodied spirits, or the place of the wicked as well as grave. the word sheol does the same thing. So perhaps it is not going to be a cut and dried application. Obviously Jesus was not a disembodied Spirit, nor was He wicked. It's interesting that all the other references in the NT testament that use hades are translated as referring to grave.

For myself, I am not bothered by all of this. I figure that we cannot see or understand the spiritual realm much and we just have to deal with the Scriptures as writtten. I know that does not make you happy, but I am content to let it rest. At some point, if God chooses, He can make it clear. If not now, in the age to come

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Jhn 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Jhn 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

I was wondering why Jesus had to give the disciples the Holy Ghost for a second time? You did say that pre-ressurrection believers were "born-again(indwellment of the Spirit)" just like post ressurrection believers are, right?

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Good question. So why did He send the Holy Spirit at Pentecost if the disciples had the Spirit earlier?

I had said that in some instances God says explicitly that the Spirit was "in" some OT figures, so I believe that God chose to indwell some as His perogative. After all, He is a Spirit and He is Omnipotent And Jesus was considered the Savior by God long before He came to earth as a man. We keep going over the same ground He was the Rock of Living Water - He is the Holy Spirit. It is a mystery.

 

[steaver]

elo...

Good question. So why did He send the Holy Spirit at Pentecost if the disciples had the Spirit earlier?

Now we are getting somewhere . Now you can see there is a difference between Receiving the Holy Spirit Rebirth verses the Working of the Holy Spirit Within a Person.

elo...


I had said that in some instances God says explicitly that the Spirit was "in" some OT figures, so I believe that God chose to indwell some as His perogative. After all, He is a Spirit and He is Omnipotent

You are correct in part but not to confuse "indwell" as meaning God had created a new creature by quickening the individuals own spirit(John 3), two becoming one in God for everlasting life, this is "born-again" and it is only offered/given post-ressurrection.

The Spirit must be "in" those who God hardens the heart as well and these folks are lost, like Pharaoh. The Holy Spirit was working "in" Pharaoh but Pharaoh was not "born-again", as defined in the NT, the New Covenant.

So we can see a clear difference between one having the Holy Spirit working "in" them or "through" them and one who has been "born of God". You must get real-and read the book

elo...

And Jesus was considered the Savior by God long before He came to earth as a man. We keep going over the same ground

I would not say "considered". Jesus is God the Son. Jesus is the Savior from eternity. You might feel you are going over the same ground, but sometimes it takes many trips over the same ground before everything true about that ground is noticed . God is still working on us all

He was the Rock of Living Water - He is the Holy Spirit. It is a mystery

Some things are a mystery, but "born-again" is not. The NT clearly lays out what this means and how it is done...

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

The "kingdom of God" is the "born-again" believers.


God Bless!

 

[mcneely]

As Baptists, we believe in eternal salvation. Once God does something, you can't do anything to take it away. If you fall away from where you are supposed to be with him, you can always come back and ask him to forgive you. It seems so easy, because it is that easy. That is the gift of eternal salvation.

---Justin

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by mcneely:
As Baptists, we believe in eternal salvation. Once God does something, you can't do anything to take it away. If you fall away from where you are supposed to be with him, you can always come back and ask him to forgive you. It seems so easy, because it is that easy. That is the gift of eternal salvation.

---Justin

I think that is a matter of speculation. There are scripts that show that you can't. I realize that would be based on different perspectives per how you interpret Script. If we continue to rest on the fact that we can turn away from God and think we can keep coming back, we are testing God and He says that is a big no-no. Not only that, God said He would not contend with man forever.

I guess I am not sure why you would teach or uphold a view that says you can do what you want and expect God to pick up the pieces time and again.

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />elo...

Good question. So why did He send the Holy Spirit at Pentecost if the disciples had the Spirit earlier?

Now we are getting somewhere . Now you can see there is a difference between Receiving the Holy Spirit Rebirth verses the Working of the Holy Spirit Within a Person.

elo...


I had said that in some instances God says explicitly that the Spirit was "in" some OT figures, so I believe that God chose to indwell some as His perogative. After all, He is a Spirit and He is Omnipotent

You are correct in part but not to confuse "indwell" as meaning God had created a new creature by quickening the individuals own spirit(John 3), two becoming one in God for everlasting life, this is "born-again" and it is only offered/given post-ressurrection.

The Spirit must be "in" those who God hardens the heart as well and these folks are lost, like Pharaoh. The Holy Spirit was working "in" Pharaoh but Pharaoh was not "born-again", as defined in the NT, the New Covenant.

So we can see a clear difference between one having the Holy Spirit working "in" them or "through" them and one who has been "born of God". You must get real-and read the book

elo...

And Jesus was considered the Savior by God long before He came to earth as a man. We keep going over the same ground

I would not say "considered". Jesus is God the Son. Jesus is the Savior from eternity. You might feel you are going over the same ground, but sometimes it takes many trips over the same ground before everything true about that ground is noticed . God is still working on us all

He was the Rock of Living Water - He is the Holy Spirit. It is a mystery

Some things are a mystery, but "born-again" is not. The NT clearly lays out what this means and how it is done...

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

The "kingdom of God" is the "born-again" believers.


God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Being born again *is* a mystery. If God says the OT saints were saved, they were. You do not have a "process" that clearly shows their salvation, other than speculation.

What we have are OT believers who "walked with God",who were called the "friend of God", who were taken up into Heaven, who were called righteous by God. That means they were saved.

You keep dismissing the fact that Jesus was slain BEFORE the foundation of the world. If God chose to "save" those before Christ died, that is His perogative. As I stated earlier, Jesus forgave sin BEFORE He died. His disciples were saved BEFORE Jesus died = Old Covenant. New Covenant is through His blood, because the Law is written on the heart - no longer written on stoney tablets, but on the flesh of the heart.

In my opinion, when Jesus "blew His Spirit" on the disciples in John 20 - that was "New Covenant" taking affect [for lack of better word].
Pentecost was to endue with power so that they could go into the world and preach the gospel.

One last thing - the Israelites were called the church at Sinai. They were just as saved as any true believer.