Scriptures Calvinists must deal with, continued...

[DHK]

I have been abundantly clear about how "world" is usually used.

It almost NEVER means every single person and ANY INTELLIGENT person KNOWS it.

The WHOLE WORLD knows that when you use the words "whole world" that is almost NEVER refers to every single person.

You abuse the Scriptures to support your new nameless theology that you made up.

If you can't define what world Christ died for, how do you know that you are one of the elect? Please explain.
If salvation is all of God, inasmuch as God even has to give the faith to the one believing, then how do you know God gave you faith to believe? Or was it your own faith all along? Please explain.
Explain,
How when the Scriptures say: "Being justified by faith we have peace with God," you say that faith isn't our faith but God's faith simply because "salvation is all of God."
And give a good Biblical answer how you can know for sure that you are one of the elect.

 

[Skandelon]

Your off topic.

The point here is that in your system, which thank God you actually have, you have men who are humbler and wiser going to heaven and men who are prouder and more foolish going to hell.

Both of our "systems" have that Luke. Your system just has God effectually making the man more humble and my system says the man must "humble himself."

My system just so happens to use the same terminology as the scriptures though. So, point for me.

It's truly as simple as that.

Yes it is. Thanks for making it clear. :thumbsup:

Oh No! That is a wonderful verse!

Find me one quote from any Calvinist writing that has said man can boast in the fact that he understands and knows the Lord. Jeremiah doesn't qualify this passage with endless explanations on how we came to understand and know, it just tells us to boast in it....something a Calvinist would NEVER do.

The question is this. Where did he get that glorious knowledge of God and for what reason do others NOT have it?

We get it from God. The reasons others perish is because they refuse to accept what they has been clearly revealed. Period.

Your answer must be this. Because he is more humble than his fellows.

Pin a rose on his nose!

Or better yet, let him enter in to the kingdom of heaven. The whole system of reward and punishment makes no since in a world where God is the only actor. He is simply rewarding and punishing himself for what He made his puppets do.

It really is. That is a good point.

Then we will lay those rewards at his feet and praise him who alone is worthy.

Lay what rewards at his feet, the ones he earned for himself? That makes no sense. The rewards are given to the poor in spirit, the humble at heart. It says, "Humble YOURSELF and you will be lifted up." Not the other way around... "He will lift you up (regenerate you) and make you want to be humble."

 

[psalms109:31]

What I see from their

What I see from their post is, they want to get anybody to believe they were chosen before the foundation of the world. They didn't do anything so they can't receive any praise, God just choose them. Then once you believe all this, then you can learn about Christ and why you are chosen.

That is why he starts talking about you are better than everyone else that you can be saved and billions die and suffer in hell.

So no matter what you say about what you did for Christ when ask to trust in Him, to poor out your testimony how God changed your life through Jesus Christ you are caught up in his catch 22.

 

[webdog]

,

you first. You are the most smug and insulting person i have ever conversed with.

I'll stop pointing out your faults the moment you stop being a smart alek.

Now, as to your references.

i john 5:19
american standard version
we know that we are of god, and the whole world lieth in the evil one.

Does every single person on earth lie in the wicked one??
Are not the saints delivered from the power of the evil one???

Yea, indeed, by this point many thousands did not lie in the power of the wicked one.

Not to mention all the millions upon million of children who according to you are innocent.

So no. John most certainly did not use whole world to refer to every single person in that instance.

Nobody with half a brain interprets it to mean every single person on earth, imo.

revelation 12:9
new american standard bible (©1995)
and the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Does he indeed deceive the every single person on earth????????

Of course not!!

No reputable commentary that was not simply obsessed with supporting arminianism would say otherwise.

He does not deceive the saints. John said that they could not be deceived!

So once again john does not use "whole world" to refer to every single person on earth. He sure as heck-fire does not use it to mean every single person on earth of all ages since the world began and to it's end!

Revelation 16:14 has nothing at all to do with every single person on earth but literally means all over the earth.

And i john 2:2 does not mean every single person either.

Try again.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[webdog]

Had a whole reply I lost on my phone and will not allow me to edit all of those commas. Will respond after the weekend...not ducking and covering...busy.

 

[Skandelon]

Nice try Luke...but try again, this time try leaving the insults out. I know it's difficult, but I would think it shouldn't be that tough for a pastor.

You first. You are the most smug and insulting person I have ever conversed with.

I'll stop pointing out your faults the moment you stop being a smart alek.

Guys, please consider that there are lost people reading through these boards looking for answers to very difficult questions. They will know us by our love for each other.

Luke, being a smart alek is one thing, but name calling and personal insults is even worse. Both are unnecessary, and I know I can tend to drift toward the mud too when provoked, but we must fight against this tendency. Two wrongs don't make it right and each of you are only responsible for how you respond to your brother in Christ. (dang, now I sound like I'm talking to my kids...sorry, but it applies here too, I really am not trying to talk down to you, because I fail too)

1 John 3:14
We know that we have left our old dead condition and entered into new life. We know it because we love one another. Those who do not are still living in their old condition.

I beg you both to consider the blatantly clear scriptures on these matters as you debate the less clear scriptures on other matters. Thanks

 

[webdog]

Skan, I'll have to both agree and disagree. I think it is important that the casual reader who may not know Christ and visits here to see a pastor with the attitude Luke has called out and admonished...we are commanded to do this, actually. When he is spewing his venom and vitriol (not to mention physical threats, self described abrasiveness, demeaning of those with lesser formal education and outright unbecoming traits of the officer of elder / bishop / pastor)on thread after thread, as a brother he needs to be called out on it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"So no matter what you say about what you did for Christ"

Yea right! What you did for Christ...:laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That IS good news.

Spurgeon said it was like being saved all over again.

The Best News Luke.... He had admitted he was indoctrinated by an off the wall Pastor (with very little education). some of the tactics used would get you totally upset if I told you. Thank the Lord he is away from that nonsense & he is under the direction of a good Calvinist pastor now. Whats even more encouraging is his family is now moving in the direction of embracing DoG. I'm totally excited! Praise God!

 

[Skandelon]

Skan, I'll have to both agree and disagree. I think it is important that the casual reader who may not know Christ and visits here to see a pastor with the attitude Luke has called out and admonished...we are commanded to do this, actually. When he is spewing his venom and vitriol (not to mention physical threats, self described abrasiveness, demeaning of those with lesser formal education and outright unbecoming traits of the officer of elder / bishop / pastor)on thread after thread, as a brother he needs to be called out on it.

A gentle answer deflects anger, but harsh words make tempers flare. -Proverbs 15:1

I suspect that Luke and others would react differently if not acting through the medium of an online forum. He is probably and pretty reasonable guy in person. Sometimes the anonymity of an online forum leads us to say things we wouldn't otherwise. While I agree that we should confront sin in love we probably should do that through PMs since that is the rules of the board... Just my two cents. I'm no authority or anything, I need reminders too...I just happen to know many read these forums when they google certain questions and the way were treat each other is a reflection of what we claim to believe.

 

[TomVols]

Guys, please consider that there are lost people reading through these boards looking for answers to very difficult questions. They will know us by our love for each other.

I hear you, Skandelon. However, the debits to the Kingdom are not limited to just the one you mentioned. I don't want to name names. Well, yes I do, but I won't. I'll just say that people who live in glass houses....well, you know the rest. Some need to get the log out of their own eye first.

We can disagree without being disagreeable. But most choose not to. You're right. I think the keyboard gives some a tad more testosterone than they'd have if face to face.

I close with this: I don't care how theologically bent you are - when you contend in the flesh, you're sinning, regardless of how "right" you are.

And we all need grace here from time to time, don't we?

 

[psalms109:31]

Yea right! What you did for Christ...:laugh:

It is amazing what we can do with the words of life as to where we are heading without it and all we can't do without it.

So Christ is doing everything we are the messenger, but we know the messenger is nothing it is the one who sent the messenger and gave the message that is to be praised and glorified.

God loved the world is all I needed to begin my walk, the words of life, before I even knew the one who gave it.

The hardest thing was for me to accept is that only those who heard the words of Life and believed will be saved and the rest will be condemned. To trust in Jesus isn't work and it credits to us righteousness. None of this makes me different than anyone else all men have the same hope as me and God made us His messengers

 

[Skandelon]

I hear you, Skandelon. However, the debits to the Kingdom are not limited to just the one you mentioned.

I didn't mean to insinuate that it was limited to any one individual. He was just the one making personal attacks on this thread.

I don't want to name names. Well, yes I do, but I won't. I'll just say that people who live in glass houses....well, you know the rest. Some need to get the log out of their own eye first.

Please bring a specific charge with a specific quote, I'm more than happy to receive an appropriate rebuke when it is warranted. I don't remember you ever needing to do that with me, Tom...But if it was needed which this comment seems to indicate, why wasn't it brought?

Also, Tom, if you read my previous posts you will see that I clearly owned up to my own tendency to stoop to harsh retorts and the need to be reminded of these things, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to bring this rebuke to my comments??? Maybe, I'm misreading your intent?

We can disagree without being disagreeable. But most choose not to. You're right. I think the keyboard gives some a tad more testosterone than they'd have if face to face.

Very true.

I close with this: I don't care how theologically bent you are - when you contend in the flesh, you're sinning, regardless of how "right" you are.

And we all need grace here from time to time, don't we?

Yes we do!

 

[TomVols]

Maybe, I'm misreading your intent?

Very much so. I was not thinking of you in the slightest, Skandelon. Not even ALMOST on my radar screen. My apologies. I should've specified I wasn't directing this at you.

Would to God that others on this thread had your demeanor.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is amazing what we can do with the words of life as to where we are heading without it and all we can't do without it.

So Christ is doing everything we are the messenger, but we know the messenger is nothing it is the one who sent the messenger and gave the message that is to be praised and glorified.

God loved the world is all I needed to begin my walk, the words of life, before I even knew the one who gave it.

The hardest thing was for me to accept is that only those who heard the words of Life and believed will be saved and the rest will be condemned. To trust in Jesus isn't work and it credits to us righteousness. None of this makes me different than anyone else all men have the same hope as me and God made us His messengers

Let me make this abundantly clear for you & us all.....lets read Eph. 2:8-9

"It is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God--NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast."

We agree correct?

 

[psalms109:31]

Let me make this abundantly clear for you & us all.....lets read Eph. 2:8-9

"It is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God--NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast."

We agree correct?

Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[Psalm 32:1,2]

We boast in the work of Christ, because we can't boast in our work when it isn't.

 

[DHK]

Let me make this abundantly clear for you & us all.....lets read Eph. 2:8-9

"It is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God--NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast."

We agree correct?

Only if you have the right context. It is salvation that is the gift of God. That is the gift, not the faith. "through faith" is simply a prepositional phrase that can be added in or taken out, and the statement still make sense. Salvation is the subject.

 

[psalms109:31]

Since

The cost of our sin is death, so you can't do anything to pay your debt. You have to trust in the work of Jesus and His word. We are saved by grace and it is of Jesus, our Lord, our God and our Saviour.

 

[Skandelon]

Very much so. I was not thinking of you in the slightest, Skandelon. Not even ALMOST on my radar screen. My apologies. I should've specified I wasn't directing this at you.

Would to God that others on this thread had your demeanor.

Thanks for the clarification. I thought there might be a log I hadn't seen yet, and I already know of so many... :saint:

 

[Luke2427]

Both of our "systems" have that Luke. Your system just has God effectually making the man more humble and my system says the man must "humble himself."

I agree with your comments about my system.

I am thrilled to hear you agree that the better ones go to heaven in your system.

I have never been able to get these nameless theology guys to admit that.

Those who are wise enough and decent enough to humble themselves go to heaven.

Those who are not as wise and not as decent go to hell.

Thank you for finally admitting this.

My system just so happens to use the same terminology as the scriptures though. So, point for me.

Yes, but you have already demonstrated that you do not get some things about Scriptural language that are essential to understanding the Scriptures correctly.

Anthropomorphic language for example.

BTW, I do believe that we humble ourselves. We do so because God ordained it, enabled it and brought it to pass.

Yes it is. Thanks for making it clear. :thumbsup:

Find me one quote from any Calvinist writing that has said man can boast in the fact that he understands and knows the Lord.

Frankly that's a silly challenge.

I am a Calvinist and I wrote about it in the last post.

But it is dumb to ask somebody to spend hours scouring through literature to find a quote for you.

You're better than that.

Jeremiah doesn't qualify this passage with endless explanations on how we came to understand and know, it just tells us to boast in it....something a Calvinist would NEVER do.

He doesn't have to. We have the WHOLE BIBLE which must agree internally. That is why we HAVE theology.

But I am 100% for boasting that we know the Lord. 100% for it.

But the question is WHY? Why do we know the Lord and others do not?

We get it from God. The reasons others perish is because they refuse to accept what they has been clearly revealed. Period.

You wish there could be a period there but it cannot be for thinking people.

What about those who "accept" this is different from those who do not?

In your system it is simply that they are BETTER. They are wiser and more humble.

You, in your system are going to heaven simply because for whatever reason you are a better man than the billions who are damned.

Or better yet, let him enter in to the kingdom of heaven. The whole system of reward and punishment makes no since in a world where God is the only actor. He is simply rewarding and punishing himself for what He made his puppets do.

God is not the only actor. Stop debating people in your head and debate me.