Scriptures Calvinists must deal with, continued...

AIC,

That parts you deny is sin related...not gospel related.




Quote:
actually it is your failure to accurately understand the teaching before being critical of it.
When the thread is about "scriptures" calvinists have to deal with...we see the calvinist does indeed deal with them. We also learn that when the arminian tries to do the same he cannot...as we see here.


Your Adam did not "die" in the fall...he was only wounded and still has full ability. The scripture teaches a dead Adam. You know what I was getting at, but go to the safe ground of the gospel....avoiding the real dispute.

then this;

AIC, what I know is there is truth and error, not our side/your side.

There is truth and those who oppose it. It is not like two teams in a game.
Make no mistake about it. It is not multiple choice theology.

You are calling truth error. Everyone stands somewhere.

 

I know that Christ died for me because I am saved. I know I am saved because the evidences lined out in Scripture are present in my life.

How do my children know that I bought them Christmas presents last year when they do not believe that I buy presents for every kid on earth?

VERY SIMPLE! They HAVE the presents!

How do I know I am saved when I believe that God does not intend to save every single person in the history of the world???

VERY SIMPLE! I have salvation.

Be done now with this silly line of reasoning that says that one has to believe in unlimited atonement in order to know that Christ died for him. It is absurd.

I do not care what he said. I care what the Word of God says. The Word of God says that knowing Christ died for me, knowing I am saved is based upon these evidences. NO WHERE does it even IMPLY that one must believe in unlimited atonement in order to know that Christ died for him.

In other words you do not believe that salvation is all of God.

You believe that God has done everything possible to OFFER salvation but not to bring it to pass. In order to bring it to pass a man must be wiser and humbler than his fellow man.

You are going to heaven because you are wise and humbler than your fellow man who is lost.

Congratulations!

It is GRANTED that you believe. It means EXACTLY what it says.

This is consistent with the Ephesians 2 where faith is the gift of God so that no man can boast.

That verse has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING you are purporting.

You might as well have posted (1 Chron. 26:18)- "At parbar westward, four at the causeway and two at parbar."

Same. You have made no exposition and have no point here.

You should see an optometrist. You have an "I" problem.

What separates you from the lost? YOU DO!

Congratulations!

You chose wiser than your fellow lost men.

You are a better man because you chose so wisely. Lesser men do not choose so well as you do.

Pat yourself on your back when you get to glory. You are there because of YOU. If all men were as wise and humble as YOU are then ALL MEN would go to heaven.

But men of your wisdom and humility are hard to find!

Once again- Congratulations!

And why did YOU choose so wisely?

Because you are so much wiser than billions of lost men. Congratulations again!

A man of such great wisdom- one who makes such a choice as you have made- a choice that FEW on this earth make comparatively- you DESERVE to be congratulated!

Oh yes! This post of yours is FULL of boasting. And rightly so!

Hey, you are a wise and humble man. That is EXACTLY why you are going to heaven whereas many billions are not.

You are going to heaven because of YOU. You said so.

Fill in this blank. The reason I am going to heaven while most men are not is because _______________________________________.

See if you can do it without the personal pronoun "I".

I bet you can't.

You are going to heaven while most are not because YOU...

Christ has died for my sins.

Your answer, though, will have to include the personal pronoun "I".

Let me show you how according to your belief.

God says, "Why should I let you into my heaven."

You say, "Because Christ has died for my sin."

God says, "SO?? Christ died for everyone's sin and MOST of them are in hell. What makes you special?"

At this point you must introduce the personal pronoun "I".

This leads to this conclusion: The only thing that separates those in hell from you is- YOU. Everything God did to save you, he also did to save them. So you are going to heaven because of YOU. They are going to hell because they are not as wise and humble as you are- those poor stupid, self-righteous people.

OH! I know, I know. You USED TO BE as stupid and self righteous as they are. But one day, YOU wised up and humbled down! That was the day that you became better than most of humanity.

So once again- Congratulations!

 

Aside from your attackers lack of logic, has this person ever read Romans 9, John 6, Ephesians 1, and if so why doesn't he believe it?

The bible is clear all the way through, but those three passages are brick walls no man can break through. I mean in Romans 9 Paul actually gives a defense for God as to why He chooses some and hardens others. Paul anticipates the objection and pre-empts it, yet still people offer it!

It's wonderful to be here and see guys like you, who are inheritantly smarter, more moral, I'm sorry, elected and enlightened.

 

AIC

You say,

Again, not true

Also not true, God has never said this. You believe this so you leave out the whole verse quoting that which says what you want it to. long-suffering to US_WARD not willing

You repeat this error over and over,then say something about calvinist error.

The way you mis-use 2 pet3:9 is also how in churches that teach what your church teaches, they will miss quote jn 6 :37 only saying part b
and him that comes to me As if it is the man who does it all.

While I am glad for every sinner who comes to Jesus according to the scriptures.....I do not leave out the cause...All that the Father gives to me.

The same with Gods wrath...it has been revealed,people are perishing without the word, or ever hearing about Jesus...that is why missionaries go, that is why we try to win the lost. No second chance, no secret revelation, or enlightenment.
It is not as you say; [tough luck]....it is the decree of God...there is no luck.
When you deny this....your objection is indicating that you believe there is unrighteousness with God in how He has ordained the ways and the means of the great commission.

 

From Spurgeon's Autobiography:

 

Posted by Iconoclast: Calvinism is the truth of God systematized.Some of the truths are difficult. Because of this...without prayer,and self examination a believer who holds these truths may drift into sinful and rough responses from time to time.

Two good examples not practicing what we preach:
1. You have handled your first episode of "arminians gone wild" fairly well
2. stay in the word and truth and seek to edify....the sheep will always welcome the truth of the good shepherd. (What a nasty insinuation of those who do not agree with you Iconoclast)

 

Charles Spurgeon, sermon "The God of Peace":

"I admit that some called, Calvinists, are the most quarrelsome set breathing, this is the reason—while they have the main part of the Truth of God, many of them are leaving out something important—therefore God chastises them because they are some of His best children! It may be a sign of life that they are so eager after Truth that they kill one another in order to get it, but I wish they would leave off their quarrelling, for it is a disgrace to our religion. If they had more peace, I might hope better for the progress of Truth. Everyone says to me—“Look there at your Brothers and Sisters! I never saw such a set of cut-throats in my life! I never saw a Church where they have the Gospel, where they are not always falling out!” Well, that is near the truth and I am ashamed to confess it."

 

Weak as me

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble. The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.


I praise you Father that those you appointed for eternal life believed

Acts 13:
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

 

:thumbs:raying::godisgood:

 

Having been an Arminian Apologist in your past, surely you understand that non-Calvinists do have explanations as to what we believe these passages mean, just as you have explanations for those texts which seem to contradict your views, right?

 

They are walls that no one can overcome. Arms try to say that it's nations in Romans 9 when clearly in the Greek it's personal noun, and even if it was nations it still shows partiality. No Arminian has done a good job, something I'd think you'd know.

Look, I'm quitting this forum, this is worse that Sunday School for children. I mean "Why did God create us", Answer "To deal with the angels". "Did Jesus have to die for us". No one here has any theological study so what I write seems Greek (No pun).

Thanks, good luck to you.

 

Hello sag38

Cal1 barely introduces himself, posts a few posts....and within 20 minutes is called;

a troll, then told If so, I guess you have room to boast in your intelligence and ability to understand and accept this knowledge, right? If so, aren't you taking glory from God?
__________All the more reason not to insult others by implying they are "lazy" or have "not studied" these issues.
__________________
________
Wow. Baseless accusations, trolling comments....all in a day. Not exactly the way to get your feet wet. Your lack of reasonable answers to Skan's questions leads me to believe maybe you are not as eager to discuss issues, learn and grow as you come off, but as a TULIP prosylyte.

Not interested. Enough of those types already


So I encourage the brother will Jn 10 that true sheep always find encouragement with;

Sag....is staying in the word of truth and seeking to edify saints a bad thing?
Do the sheep welcome the truth of the Good Shepherd?

is it nasty to say that those who reject God's truth are most likely not sheep.

 

"Perhaps it is the Calvinistic doctrine which they have received, and then the five points are as dear to them as their five senses. These men will contend, not to say earnestly, but savagely for the faith. They very vehemently denounce all those who differ from them in the smallest degree; and deal damnation round the land with amazing liberality to all who are not full weight according to the balance of their little Zoar, Rehoboth, or Jireh: while all the while the spirit of Christ, the love of the Spirit, bowels of compassion, and holiness of character are no more to be expected from them than grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles." —Charles Spurgeon, "Nothing But Leaves"

 

You are still avoiding the basic question here. I will put it a bit more dogmatically for you. Hopefully you can see the futility of your position, and how illogical it is.
1. Your definition of "world" is confined, limited, exclusive, etc., then you have a problem. Which world are you speaking of. You say again and again that world does not mean all the world in all ages. So how do you know for sure that the world (John 3:16; 1John 2:2) includes you? How can you be sure that this "cosmos", written ca. 96 A.D. included you? After all, are you sure that John had in mind someone living in 2011? If not, then either your salvation must rest on "whosoever believeth..." or you don't have any assurance of salvation at all, because you can't be sure of which world John was speaking of.
Please define "cosmos" in John 3:16.

2. The evidences outlined in Scripture are true only because YOU put YOUR faith in Christ. These evidences are purely subjective and revolve around YOU. YOU are at the CENTER of these experiences.
When YOU receive an answer to prayer, it is YOU that receives it.
God often favors YOU with his grace.
He makes YOU the object of his love.
YOU are the one that worships him.
YOU receive gifts from Him.
He doesn't need you; YOU need him!
--It appears to me that YOU have a very SELFISH YOU-CENTERED type of Christianity; because Christ doesn't need you, YOU need him.

Furthermore, as pointed out above you cannot know that you are really saved until you reconcile if you know that you are living in the cosmos that Christ died for. It is a limited cosmos according to you, and you may fall outside of its parameters. How do you know for sure that you fall within that parameters of the cosmos that John was writing about in the first century? Luke how do you know this unless that cosmos was for everyone for all ages?

Notice that I said nothing about an unlimited atonement. I am only looking for some very basic definitions from you. But you are evading them.
No, it doesn't say you have to believe in an unlimited atonement; but it does say you must believe. You must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved (Acts 16:31). God can't do that for you. You must put your own faith in Christ in order for Christ to grant you salvation. God does not give faith to the unregenerate.
You are right. You must know that Christ died for you. And then you must believe on that message from the heart.

Why do you deny the words that I said. This is the second time you have done this. It is akin to a lie.
Salvation is all of God. Salvation is the gift of God (Eph.2:8,9; Rom.6:23). It must be accepted, as any gift is, by faith, one's own faith.

He must be wise enough to accept the gift that God has offered him, and not foolish enough to refuse it--like the Pharisees were. I think that is a fair assessment.

I am going to heaven because I trusted in Christ. Others are not going to heaven because they refused to trust in Christ. Which category have you placed yourself in?

Yes, that is exactly what it says.

--We are first to believe on his name, and they we are to suffer for his name. We are to do both.

Please learn some grammar. You fail in this department. "through faith" is a prepositional phrase and has nothing to do with "the gift of God," which is the object of the subject of "salvation." Salvation" is the subject, and salvation is the gift of God, which is consistent throughout the rest of Scripture. In fact your view is totally unscriptural and anti-Biblical. God never gives spiritual gifts to the unsaved--NEVER!

 

I'm fine with applying the passage to individuals in Romans 9 as long as you are consistent and will carry that interpretation over into Romans 10 and 11. Nations are made up of individuals, so what ever is true of the nation must be true of at least some individuals within that nation. It doesn't sound like your form of "Arminianism" is consistent with the one I've come to understand and believe. No wonder you rejected it in favor of Calvinism.

That is insulting and completely unnecessary. People know you by your fruits and you have just demonstrated yourself to be very rude and judgmental. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about because there are many very educated and intelligent individuals on this forum (on both sides of the Cal/Arm debate). You on the other hand haven't demonstrated that you share in these qualities.

From what I've read I seriously doubt you have any real grasp on the historical perspectives and issues involved, but if you are going to just come in and make broad sweeping insults it probably would be better for you to move on. I pray you will take these words of John Piper with you:

 

Your disdain for NT Scripture, especially those Scriptures which deal with salvation is noted. For those who need reminding the Scripture posted was:
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)
--This is meaningless to you because it is not in your Calvinistic belief system that you must "believe on the Son to have eternal life." You believe, contrary to the teaching of this verse, that God is going to believe for you. Somehow he will give you the believing power to believe or will believe for you. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

You really are serious aren't you. You are so into Calvinism that you need the most basic of Scripture explained to you:

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (1 John 5:12)
I, personally, put my faith and trust in Christ. Therefore I have the Son. And therefore, I have eternal life. That is the promise that Christ gave.

And you say you are a pastor? Do you ever listen to the "testimonies" of those in your congregation, or are they not allowed to tell of what the Lord did for them. Do you have a testimony? Telling it requires the first person singular.

No, it is the blood of the Lamb.

I chose to trust Christ. Others chose to rebel against him. What choice did YOU make?

I will be there because of the blood of Christ and his atoning sacrifice for me. I will be there because I put my faith in his sacrificial work. If I had not put my faith in Him I would not go to heaven. If you have not put YOUR faith in Christ you will not go to heaven. Christ requires a personal decision.

No. Because true faith is based on facts. True faith, unlike much of what the Catholics believe, and unlike Islam and Hinduism, is not blind. Faith is based on facts. It is a historic fact that Christ rose from the dead. My faith has as its cornerstone the resurrection of Jesus Christ. If that makes me wiser than the Catholic and Hindu belief that water washes away sins, then so be it. Muslims have faith that if they blow themselves up they will go straight to paradise. Their faith is blind. It is not based on facts. My faith is based on facts. Yes, that is intelligent wisdom. Before I heard the gospel message I thought I was going to heaven because I was baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church. That is blind faith. Had I not heard the gospel I would have gone to hell. I heard and believed. Then Christ saved me by his grace. My faith is in Him. His grace is sufficient for me.

If you don't make the same decision you will not make it into heaven.
Are you as wise?

Because I have trusted Christ; and billions haven't. Have you personally put YOUR faith and trust in Christ.

 

I hate to mention this, especially because--as a moderator--you should know this, you ought not to be questioning one's salvation as you have done here.

The Archangel