Scriptures Calvinists must deal with, continued...

Let's compare for all those who are reading along:

I believe on must humble himself : the scripture says, "humble yourself"

You believe on must be effectually humbled by God : The scripture never says that God must effectually humble a man.

So, point for my system.

I have affirmed and explained my belief of anthropomorphic language. I just don't dismiss the clear meaning of the entirety of the text under the guise of anthropomorphism. So, again, let's compare for those following along:

I believe God makes choices : The bible says, "God chooses"

Luke believe God doesn't make real choices because that would violate the concept of divine omniscience: The bible never says that his omniscience prevents him from making real choices.

So, another point for my system. That would be 2-0 for those keeping score.

Again, for those following along:

I believe we can boast in understanding and know the Lord : the Bible actually says to "boast in understanding and knowing the Lord."

Calvinists say that we have no room for any boasting because God does absolutely everything in the process : the bible never says this.

3-0 for my system! :applause:

Actually, according to your system of belief, I'm much much worse, so I'm giving myself another point.

4-0.

Again, let's compare:

I believe the reason some don't know the Lord is only because they are unwilling, despite God's desire for them to come to faith and salvation : The bible says God desires for all to be saved and come to faith and but some are "unwilling." (Matt. 23:37; 2 Peter 3:9; 1 Tim 2:4 etc)

You believe they don't know Him because God didn't choose them, something the bible doesn't teach.

5-0, my favor.

This question is a fallacy called "question begging," and I've explained that to you before. I can explain it again if you need me to. 6-0

The same is true of your system Luke. You believe God makes you better and I believe God makes us able to choose better. You can't avoiding that claim against your own system. At least in my system God is not to blame for those who were created to choose wrongly.

7-0, that is a skunk...

 

I certainly wouldn't celebrate one who has turned his back on the truth to embrace error. Too bad!

 

In your theology God is an evil monster who makes people sin and then punishes them for it! Of course, the real God is merciful and wants all men to come to the knowledge of the truth and never rejoices in sin. Nor does He make people sin to receive glory.

 

Neither would I. On the other hand, this thread (as well as others similar to it) have given me more than enough fodder to teach my adult Bible class, as we go through some of these related doctrines.

 

:thumbsup:


One should celebrate the "new birth" of an individual rather than the acceptance or non-acceptance of ANY theological perspective.

 

The only thing you'll find usable for sermons and Bible studies around here is how NOT to behave or believe :BangHead:

 

Agreed. I want people to come to Christ more than I want them to come to Calvin.

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Or Arminius

 

Didn't you say last year that

 

Calv1: Have to put something here so this will post

 

Strange indeed. I hope he has more than one brother...or much of what he says will have to be taken with a grain of salt from here on out.

 

I know I am saved because of the evidences lined out in Scripture- NONE of which have ANYTHING at ALL to do with unlimited atonement.

I love the brethren, I have the inner witness of the Holy Spirit, I keep the commandments of Christ, etc...

The fact that you have to say such a thing is proof enough that you need to have an overhaul of your theology.

Faith is the gift of God.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

It is our faith that God gives us.

Covered that at the top.


Now you tell me why some people go to heaven and others do not.

In your theology those who are better, if not morally at least mentally, go to heaven and the rest go to hell.

You are going to heaven because you were wiser than all those poor stupid souls that did not make the wise choice you made- the choice to accept Christ.

You are better than the billions who perish because you were more humble than them all. They were self-righteous and tried to get to heaven by their own works. NOT YOU! OH NO! You were not so stupid as they were. You were so much more wonderfully humble than all of them.

So you are better than BILLIONS of lost humans.

Now THAT is something to boast about!!!

Congratulations!

When you get to heaven I'm sure God will pat you on the back and say- You, DHK, are 1 in a billion. Congratulations on being so much wiser and humbler than those stupid arrogant people in hell. You are here because YOU chose wisely. You are here because YOU humbled yourself! Oh, what a great man you are!!!!"

 

Scripture also says, "Peter said much more to warn them. He urged, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." Acts 2:40

Using your wacko method of literal interpretation of EVERY word of Scripture then you can attribute your salvation to you SAVING YOURSELF!!

Of course, then again, you kind of do, don't you?

Point for my system not being man centered.:applause:

Nope, you have not.

You actually argued that God has a body!!!

So no, you don't even agree with classical Arminians on this issue. Even Arminians believe in anthropomorphic language and deny that God has a body. Unless you consider Finnis J. Dake a good representative of what you believe.

The Bible says that God knows all things. You affirmed that God has always known all there is to ever know about everything.

Therefore, it is clear that language that speaks of him NOT KNOWING something or making choices is anthropomorphic.

You certainly aren't keeping it very well. Even educated Arminians would have to give you a zero so far.

The boasting is still ultimately directed to God who GAVE the knowledge.

You are LITERALLY abusing passages to influence impressionable people on BB to BOAST before God of their salvation!!

This is dangerous. I hope God will be merciful to those who are new to the faith or very shallow theologically and not let them follow you on these things.

No Calvinist says that Christians can do NO boasting. But we only boast of that which GOD has done in us and for us and to us.

GOD FORBID THAT I SHOULD GLORY SAVE IN THE CROSS OF JESUS CHRIST! Galatians 6:14

So why are some unwilling and others willing?

You can give no answer here except that which ultimately says that you are better than the lost.

You are better because you are wiser and more humble.

Congratulations!

DING, DING, DING, DING, DING!

NOW you finally scored an ACTUAL point instead of those you've been making up heretofore.

That's right. GOD makes us better. How many HUNDREDS of times does the Bible affirm this God honoring truth!

Your system has you making YOURSELF better! My HEAVENS man how horrific is the implications of your theology!

You LITERALLY, I mean LITERALLY believe that those who make themselves better than their fellows are the ones who go to heaven!!

No WONDER you argue for your right to BOAST before God.

Oh, how I hope your heart is better than your theology.

God is not to be blamed because he is GOD and who are YOU or ANY puny mortal to try to blame the Almighty.

If he sends me to hell right NOW and you with me just to SUIT him- who will stand before his throne and silence the cries of the seraphim to call him to account?

Thank God for his grace but it is HORRIFIC wickedness to presume he MUST extend it to ANYONE, much less EVERYONE!!

I do not understand why he chooses to give ANYONE grace and faith to receive it and seals them for heaven.

I do not understand how the mind of the Almighty works in his creating the wicked for damnation. But I trust his word and his wisdom which exceeds mine as far as the heavens are above the earth.

You must account for how you save yourself and how you think of yourself as BETTER than all those who perish.

You must account for what you are going to say to God one day. Will you say, "I am here because I am wiser and humbler than those billions of stupid arrogant souls in hell! REWARD ME! Yes, you did your part- but I did MINE as well. And between the two of us- ME and Jesus- we have got me here!!!"

 

Or American Indians, they day Christ died they were instantly condemned. Are we so lost in our studies that we don't understand that who we are, where we are born, and who we will be is all from the MASTER???

 

Awesome reply Luke! :thumbs:

 

Sticks and stones...

Good

The clear contrast to the "we" (the righteous) are the "whole world", which can mean nothing but all sinful mankind. Even "we" at one point were in this condition as Gill, Barnes and Jameison, Faussett and Brown (all calvinists) agree with.

You must believe some are born free from any stain of sin, then. Hmmm...pelagianism?

Correct, I have a whole brain.

Your very argument supports my view :laugh: Of course the righteous cannot be deceived, only all sinful mankind who are not redeemed. Thanks for making that easy.

Are you saying the "whole world" here consists of others besides all sinful unredeemed mankind?!? Are you suggesting believers might be going to war against God?!

What other demographic is there besides the redeemed (us) and all sinful unredeemed mankind?!?

Ditto

 

Of course...but I just love alliteration

Seriously, would to God that we were as serious at sharing the gospel as debating the gospel.

 

Luke, if you want me to take your arguments seriously you will need to properly represent mine. I've never argued for the "literal interpretation of EVERY word of Scripture," otherwise I wouldn't have eyes because they would have been plucked out long ago.

Yet, another example of not representing my argument correctly. I made the point that God has a "spiritual body" that we cannot fully comprehend and that God at times has used manifestation of a "body" (i.e. walking in the garden etc). Also, there is the whole Jesus being God and having a body thing...but I'm not claiming all those anthropomorphic terms are even pointing to those things. I'm saying they are representative of things we can't fully understand, but the truths of them shouldn't be dismissed. When it says God hold us by his mighty right hand, we understand that he protects and preserves us in a supernatural infinite way we can't fully grasp, right? In the same way, when it says God chose this or that, we understand that He has made a choice in his own supernatural infinite way. I've never denied anthropomorphic language Luke, and the fact that you argue with me as if I have only reveals you own lack of understanding or objectivity in our discussion.

Yep! He did, through preaching, teaching, scripture... It's just not effectually applied in such a way that it can't be known but they rejected. This is why the people in Romans 1 were "without excuse." They KNEW and UNDERSTOOD God and his attributes, but REFUSED to acknowledge Him as their God. That is why they were given over and condemned without any excuses. To suggest that God doesn't allow most of humanity to know and understand God gives them the perfect excuse on the day of judgement.

But the verse says to boast that YOU know and understand, not boast in what God effectually caused in you....you are reading that into the text.

I've answered this one before Luke. This question is a fallacy called "begging the question." Tell you what, start a new thread with this question and I'll answer it again for you...this one is getting too long.

As I said before Luke, your answer is the same. The only difference is that in my system God gave everyone what they needed to be a better person and in your system he chose a select few and made them better. So, either way, we both must answer that we are "better than the lost," the difference is that it is not God's fault for those who refused to believe in my system.

Thanks, and congrats to you as well.

With his help, yes. Just because I was able to refuse his help doesn't mean that I did it without Him. Again, you are misrepresenting my views. You believe God does it effectually and I believe He does it in a way that can be refused. They perish because they refused to love the truth, not because God refused them.

"God would be just to condemn us all to hell." "The wonder of God's mercy and grace is NOT that He doesn't save everyone; it is that He even saves ANYONE!"

This is the very essence of what I believe, even as a non-Calvinist. God is not in any way morally obligated to save anyone because we deserve it. Again, this is a point upon which we can all agree.

However, God has obligated Himself, both morally and judicially, to save whosoever will come (believe). Not because they deserve it, but because He sent forth His Son to be a propitiation for sins of whole world, which is to be applied only through faith. His universal call to "every creature" to faith and repentance obligates him to save whosoever repents and believes. The doctrine that teaches that God only grants this ability to willingly repent and believe to a select few while appearing to call "every creature" is what causes the non-Calvinists to cry, "Foul!"

I don't believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because he condemns certain people to hell. We believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because He offers a pardon to all mankind while only granted a few of them the ability to receive it, all the while expressing a desire for all to come to repentance and a frustration for those who remain unwilling.

It is deceptive to offer someone a gift you fully know they cannot willingly receive. Especially if you, the giver, are the one who determines the receivers natural abilities. That type of offer cannot be geniune!

 

You are evading the question. In John 3:16 and in 1John 2:2 if the world doesn't mean all the world and "the sins of the whole world," doesn't mean what it says it means, then how do you know for sure that you are part of that world that it actually defines. If, for example, it is defined as only the geographical area that Christ walked you are left out of that world and doomed to hell. For you were never part of that world. How do you get around that unless that world is for all sinners in all the world of all ages. Do you now understand my question? How can you have any assurance of salvation with a limited definition of "world"? The "world" Christ spoke of may not include you.

My father gave me all those same answers. He was a devout Roman Catholic. I don't believe he was saved. Satan is a great deceiver.

You listen but you do not hear.
I said: "I believe salvation is all of God," but not the way that you define it. I believe Christ died for the sins of the world also, but not the way you define it. So we come to the same conclusion. You need to overhaul your theology.

A statement with no Biblical proof; an opinion bordering on heresy.
God does not give faith to the unregenerate.
God does not give spiritual gifts to the unregenerate.
God does not give the fruit of the spirit to the unregenerate.
There is no Scripture in all the Bible that indicates that he does. This is a man-made doctrine to support and prop-up Calvinism. It is totally unbiblical. You cannot support it, and have not supported it with a single verse of Scripture.

That is written to Christians.
I have believed on Christ. It was I that believed, and as the verse indicates it is I that will suffer. The verse supports my view.

An opinion stated without scriptural support. An unfounded unbiblical opinion.

Read your Bible:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (1 John 5:12)

Not true:
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (Romans 3:10)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23)

Who will go to heaven:
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)

Not true.
Man in his rebellion against God chooses not to receive Christ:
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Romans 1:20)

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)

Not so. I was just as rebellious and self-righteous until someone finally shared the gospel with me at the age of 20. Before that time I had never heard it before. Once I heard it, I trusted Christ as my Savior. If I had gone on in my darkness without ever hearing the gospel the blood of my eternal destiny would have rested on those two individuals who shared with me the gospel (if they had not shared the gospel when they had the opportunity).
The same is true of us. If God gives you the call to the mission field or even to witness to another individual and you don't his blood will be on your hands.

I was lost and Jesus saved me. I was given a choice and I believed.

I have nothing to boast in except in the glory of my Lord Jesus Christ who made the sacrifice to save me, and did.

I trust I will be one of those that the Lord will say: "Well done thou good and faithful servant." but that won't be in regard to salvation, it will be in regard to service.

Are you as holy as God is holy?
When you get to heaven, and if God were to say to you: "Why should I let you into my heaven," what answer will you give?

 

God has chosen to use the Preaching of the Gospel, and the power of the Holy Spirit to grant eternal life to those he foreknew and predestined to become partakers in life in Christ, to those He gave the right to be called the sons of God....