Scriptures Calvinists must deal with, continued...

Excellent and edifying (to me personally) response, DHK! :thumbsup:

 

I know you are new here...but why would you even make a comment that we are "lazy in our studies"? Why, because we disagree? Comments like that is what muddies the water and puts up walls that lead to fruitless discussion. Please don't get pulled into the mud.

 

:thumbs: Patronizing and or personal comments that even imply that others aren't as smart, educated, spiritual, or biblically knowledgable will only lead us into the mud. If we stick to addressing the topic and the arguments being made we will have a much more edifying and profitable discussion.

 

Sorry about that, you are right, I shouldn't have said that.

I do get frustrated when I see people dogmatic about things that it's clear they've never studied, may have read it, but not studied it. I will be more measured with my words in the future.

 

You might want to start now. You seem to assume that because someone disagrees with your perspective that they haven't studied it. Did CS Lewis, John Wesley or Adam Clarke not study these matters either? Could it be that some here have studied the issues at hand but have come to a different conclusion than you?

As a Calvinist, who believes in God's sovereignty over the choices of men, you should ask yourself why it is that some believers never become Calvinistic. Has God not granted all his children everything they need to believe the "truth" of Calvinism? If so, why don't we? Are we just not intelligent or knowledgable enough? If so, I guess you have room to boast in your intelligence and ability to understand and accept this knowledge, right? If so, aren't you taking glory from God?

 

You assume way too much. Talk about frustration. If you want to hear my story some time shoot me a pm...I reject your doctrine not for a lack of study. This is the second time a calvinist has said this to me today and once by a moderator. This amounts to nothing more than a veiled insult and a personal attack. Let me ask you...have you studied your opposition's view?

 

OK, to you and Webdog, I said I was sorry, you want to drag this out?

To answer your question, Lewis was a horrible theologian, he rejected Genesis, Job, Jonah all as fiction, and believed the bible contained God's word but was in fact not. I read Clarke all the time, have for years AS I VIEW BOTH SIDES.

I was a Arminian apologist, get it?

Why do you say I'm boosting of my knowledge? Should I lie to you in the interest of humility? I only understand Scripture because God has granted it to me, has NOTHING to be with my mental ability.

If someone comes to me with accusations, I don't take it personal, to me it's a insult to God, just as you would if a Atheist told you God was not great. Like Calvin said, "A dog will bark if his master is attacked, how much more will I if my God is"

 

Nice post brother....welcome to the BB ,by the way.God has blessed you in your studies and several of us enjoy that blessing.
Others cannot seem to enter into the same joy:laugh:

 

Your apology was followed by an additional patronizing remark ("I do get frustrated when I see people dogmatic about things that it's clear they've never studied") We simply called you on it. We are not attempting to "drag it out," just correct you when you insult us and others.

The point was just to show you that there are very intelligent and well studied individuals who do not share your particular Calvinistic views. That point was made but not rebutted.

Wonderful, then I'm sure you will be a great addition to the board. You must be very knowledgable on the subject at hand. May I ask how long you have been a Calvinists and where we might read some of your works in defense of Arminianism?

I didn't say you were boasting [sic] of your knowledge. I asked you a series of questions as to why you, a believer in Christ, have accepted the Calvinistic "truth" while men like Clarke and myself have rejected these teachings? Is it because God hasn't given me something that he gave to you, or are you just smarter or better in some way? I think you answer that question when you write:

So, do you believe God didn't grant me and Adam Clarke the "mental ability" to accept the "truth" of Calvinism? If not, why? What sovereign purpose might God have in not granting all his children the ability to accept these "truths?"

All the more reason not to insult others by implying they are "lazy" or have "not studied" these issues.

 

Calv1: Where? Beside, intelligence has nothing to do with it.

Calv1: You want me to give you my credentials? Why? So you can turn around and say I'm bragging? Not going for it.

Calv1: God doesn't grant all the same amount of Grace. Perhaps that's why you are here, to learn.

Calv1: You are seriously asking me why God has not Soveriengly given you the ability to read scripture?

Calv1: Since you have not forgiven me when I said I am sorry, and are dragging it out, it is clear you just wish to argue. You can stop writing me. I have no desire nor will I argue with anyone, especially a brother.

 

Wow. Baseless accusations, trolling comments....all in a day. Not exactly the way to get your feet wet. Your lack of reasonable answers to Skan's questions leads me to believe maybe you are not as eager to discuss issues, learn and grow as you come off, but as a TULIP prosylyte.

Not interested. Enough of those types already :wavey:

 

Thanks, and nice to meet you. Seems I'm already labeled with terms I've never heard. Oh well!!!!!

 

AIC,
[QUOTE
I dont have the time to post them all. Every time that you have said that there is no saving revelation for the millions who lived their entire lifetime outside of the verbal or written gosple, you are clearly adovocating that they are simply damned to hell, because of location.

If thats not "tough luck for them"...I'd like to know what is.

][/QUOTE]

God has declared that His wrath is revealed from heaven .

I did not make this up,you post as if the bible does not say this.The scripture
indicates all are perishing unless the gospel sets them free.
It looks as if you cannot process this.We see what the real problem is right here;

You put yourself in a position of calling the truth of God...[ungodly ramifications] actually it is your failure to accurately understand the teaching before being critical of it.
When the thread is about "scriptures" calvinists have to deal with...we see the calvinist does indeed deal with them. We also learn that when the arminian tries to do the same he cannot...as we see here.
No need to push a verse to say what it does not have to as you invent a whole theology that opposes the teaching of scripture

 

"the intellectual appeal of the system of Calvinism draws a certain kind of intellectual person, and that type of person doesn't tend to be the most warm, fuzzy, and tender. Therefore this type of person has a greater danger of being hostile, gruff, abrupt, insensitive or intellectualistic. I'll just confess that. It's a sad and terrible thing that that's the case." —John Piper

 

Where are there well studied and intelligent non-Calvinists or where did I make that point?

.
I said "studied intelligent," meaning they are smart and have studied the issues, which is a rebuttal to your implication that those who disagree with Calvinism lack knowledge and have not studied.

I didn't ask for credentials. You told us you were an "Arminian apologist" and I simply asked how long ago you changed to become a Calvinist and if you had any published works we might be able to read. Apologists typically write articles, papers or maybe blogs that can give us more insight on their views. I was never intending to accuse you of bragging, I was only turning your accusations of our synergistic system as being "boast worthy" onto you, because either you become a Calvinistic "synergistically" or God is responsible for all non-Calvinistic believers.

Maybe. When I joined this board in 2003 I was a Calvinist, now I'm not. I've learned a lot and probably have much more to learn.

So, did Adam Clarke, for example, not receive the grace to accept the "truth" of Calvinism? If not, why do you suppose God wouldn't grant his child this precious knowledge of the doctrines of grace?

Brother, you misinterpret me. I will gladly accept a sincere apology, but when you apologize and then continue to insult the very next sentence by implying that those who disagree with you have not studied then we are going to correct you. I think that is a reasonable response. This is a debate forum and a place to post apposing views regarding doctrinal matters. We can do that in a respectful and Christlike manner. When things get personal (i.e. you are unable to read scripture or you are too lazy to study) then the discussion is drug into the mud.

I welcome respectful arguments. But I will rebuke and correct personal, demeaning or patronizing attacks. I hope you understand. We can move on now and talk about the topic at hand.

Please practice using your quote feature so people can respond to your posts more easily. You will get it. It just takes a little practice.

 

Oh yes....if you read through the posts you will notice that a good scriptural discussion gets derailed into a humanistic philosophical one.We would profit more if we stayed with the verses.
You have handled your first episode of " arminians gone wild" fairly well cal 1:thumbs:
To be fair sometimes we get pulled into it more than we should,and do similar posts out of frustration.
Cal 1...stay in the word and truth and seek to edify....the sheep will always welcome the truth of the good shepherd.jn10:26-27

 

Where are these arminians? Were you reading the same posts the rest of were?

 

Hello Jerome,
I noticed you have posted this several times....and although
I am not a big Piper fan....but there is a degree of truth in this post.

Calvinism is the truth of God systematized.Some of the truths are difficult.
Because of this...without prayer,and self examination a believer who holds these truths may drift into sinful and rough responses from time to time.

And yet, the other side of the truth is that these same truths are humbling to the flesh and once viewed as they are the truth of God there is a desire to help others see their need of the saving work of The Lord Jesus Christ.
To attempt to participate on a message board like this and see many disparage the truth of God is dis-heartening sometimes. We could be building up each other more. Sometimes there is a desire to question to learn...other times it is just an attack for attacks sake.
I would urge those on the attack to take care not to be found fighting against God......like Saul killing christians. You wind up opposing yourself.

 

Hello WD.
Nobody wants to be labelled when a discussion does not go well for their position,:smilewinkgrin:
In your case....[if you don't mind me saying....lol...sometimes you do mind]
I think your theology is more of a mix, or hybrid so I can see why you post what you do sometimes.Because of this, I like some of your thoughts sometimes in your posts, and sometimes I am provoked, confused , or annoyed. Although at this time we do not agree too often,I try to glean some of your better thoughts and come back at you from time to time.
[QUOTE Were you reading the same posts the rest of were?][/QUOTE]

Sometimes when the posts...decline...so to speak, I find I do not follow them as close,as much as I try to figure out the motivation of the one posting.
Then I try and make a determination, is the person;
1] sincere

2] trying to learn

3] trying to help

4]agenda driven

5]trying to attack personally
trying to attack doctrinaly
6] a wolf in sheeps clothing

7]sincerely mistaken
sincerely mis-informed
8]delibrately perverse

9] open to correction

10]maybe struggling with mental or emotional problems

It affects the type of response given. Does this make sense WD?How do you process it WD?