Seeker Sensitive: Is It Biblical?

[Linda64]

rsr--

When I joined my local IFB church, I was not required to "sign" on the dotted line. Most Baptist churches have Articles of Faith and Church By-Laws--not covenants of the kind which Rick Warren and the Seeker Sensitive/PDL Churches require one to sign.

Continuing with the article on Covenants:

In Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary, he makes the following point:

"The worse men are, the less they are bound by oaths; the better they are, the less there is need for them."

When a church becomes dependent upon carnal mechanisms for spiritual motivation rather than the power and conviction of the Holy Spirit, contracts become fashionable among frustrated pastors who find it necessary to coerce members into carrying out the church’s ministry. Those who are led by the Spirit of God don’t need to sign on some dotted line guaranteeing their faithfulness. Those who aren’t led by the Spirit have no business in a Christian ministry to begin with. We don’t sign contracts guaranteeing our commitment to Christ for our salvation. So, why is it now necessary to sign a contract guaranteeing our commitment to serve in His church? Because faith isn’t required, that’s why. It’s only when you set out to fill your church with the faith-LESS that guarantees become necessary.

Saddleback, one of the "cue ball" churches in the purpose-driven/seeker-sensitive/church growth movement has been at the forefront of promoting unbiblical ideas like this over the past decade along with Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois. Under the banner of Christ these "men of faith" rely on marketing strategies, polls, opinions, experimentation, psychology, consensus, compromise, consultants and "worshiptainment" to draw and hold large numbers of "unchurched" people into their "worship centers" each week to "get connected" with their "felt needs" and finances. In spite of the fact that such things have little or nothing to do with repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, church growth gurus like Rick Warren and Bill Hybels have marketed all sorts of psychological contraptions to the Body of Christ through their member associations, leadership conferences and self-help books like "The Purpose Driven Church" and "Honest To God" as biblically acceptable ways of "doing church".

Let me begin by stating upfront that Jesus Christ never commissioned His followers to go out into the world and "church" lost people. Nowhere in scripture will you find the Lord or any of His Apostles attempting to lure and entice the lost into the first century church. That was NEVER our Lord’s intention. The church was created WITH and FOR the REDEEMEND ONLY -- not for the faithless, rebellious and unrepentant.

http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor3.htm

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Linda64:
Check this site out about Church Membership Covenants, which are required in Seeker Sensitive churches:

http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor3.htm

"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, SWEAR NOT AT ALL; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: "- Matthew 5:33-34 (emphasis added).

Do you really understand the interpretation of those verses?

Have you read James 5:12? "But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment."

The idea of those verses is to let your word be sufficient.

The story referenced is at
http://www.baptistpress.com/bpfeature.asp?ID=676%20


FIRST-PERSON: Church membership covenant: Expect what the Bible expects
By Rick Warren
Aug 19, 2002

LAKE FOREST, Calif. (BP)--Why do churches have so many people on their membership rolls who give little or no evidence of Christian commitment or even conversion? Why do many churches find it difficult to motivate members to give, serve, pray and share their faith? The answer is simple. The members were allowed to join with no expectations placed on them.

You get what you ask for!

The difference between attenders and members can be summed up in one word: commitment. It's like the difference between couples who just "live together" and those who get married. While becoming a Christian means to commit yourself to Christ, becoming a church member means to commit yourself to other Christians. It is a commitment to a specific group of believers -- to practice the "one-another"s of the New Testament.

Paul mentions two different types of commitment in 2 Corinthians 8:5: "First they gave themselves to the Lord; and then, by God's will, they gave themselves to us as well" (GN). At Saddleback, we call these the first-base commitments. You commit yourself to Christ for salvation and then you commit yourself to other Christians for membership in our church family.

In our church we define koinonia (fellowship) as "being as committed to each other as we are to Jesus Christ."

Jesus said that our love for each other was to be the mark of discipleship (John 13:33-34).

I believe it's an indictment of American Christianity that most believers can quote John 3:16 but they can't quote 1 John 3:16: "This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers." When was the last time you heard a message on this verse? Today, most churches are silent about developing that level of commitment to each other.

The phrase "one another" or "each other" is used more than 50 times in the New Testament. We are commanded to love each other, pray for each other, encourage each other, admonish each other, greet each other, serve each other, teach each other, accept each other, honor each other, bear each other's burdens, forgive each other, sing to each other, submit to each other and be devoted to each other. All of these commands are what membership in a local body of believers is all about. These are the responsibilities of membership.

At Saddleback, we only expect of our members what the Bible clearly expects of all believers. These expectations are summarized in our Membership Covenant.

The most important part of a marriage ceremony is when the man and woman exchange vows. Before witnesses and God, they make certain promises to each other. This covenant between them is the essence of the marriage. In the same way, I believe the essence of church membership is contained in the willingness to commit to a membership covenant. It is the most important element of our membership class.

Throughout the Bible and church history, spiritual covenants have been made between people in order for mutual edification and accountability.

At Saddleback we have four requirements for membership:

1) A personal profession of Christ as Lord and Savior.

2) Baptism by immersion as a public symbol of one's faith.

3) Completion of the membership class.

4) A signed commitment to abide by Saddleback's membership covenant.

I urge you to prayerfully prepare and adopt a membership covenant in your congregation if you don't have one. It can revolutionize your church. You may worry, "If we adopt a membership covenant, there will be some who leave our church over it." You're right. There will be some. But here is the fact of reality: People are going to leave your church no matter what you do. Don't be afraid of people leaving. People even walked away from Jesus. When your congregation adopts a membership covenant, at least you're choosing the kind of people who stay.

Here is a copy of our membership covenant:

The Saddleback Membership Covenant

Having received Christ as my Lord and Savior and been baptized, and being in agreement with Saddleback's statements, strategy, and structure, I now feel led by the Holy Spirit to unite with the Saddleback church family. In doing so, I commit myself to God and to the other members to do the following:

1. I WILL PROTECT THE UNITY OF MY CHURCH

...By acting in love toward other members

...By refusing to gossip

...By following the leaders

"So let us concentrate on the things which make for harmony, and on the growth of our fellowship together." Rom. 15:19 (Ph)

"Have a sincere love for your fellow believers, love one another earnestly with all your hearts." 1 Peter 1:22 (TEV)

"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs..." Eph. 4:29

"Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be no advantage to you." Heb. 13:17

2. I WILL SHARE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF MY CHURCH

...By praying for its growth

...By inviting the unchurched to attend

...By warmly welcoming those who visit

"To the church ... we always thank God for you and pray for you constantly." 1 Thess. 1:2

"The Master said to the servant, 'Go out to the roads and country lanes, and urge the people there to come so my house will be full.'" Luke 14:23 (NCV)

"So, warmly welcome each other into the church, just as Christ has warmly welcomed you; then God will be glorified." Rom. 15:7 (LB)

3. I WILL SERVE THE MINISTRY OF MY CHURCH

...By discovering my gifts and talents

...By being equipped to serve by my pastors

...By developing a servant's heart

"Serve one another with the particular gifts God has given each of you..." 1 Peter 4:10(Ph)

"God gave...some to be pastors and teachers to prepare God's people for works of ministry, so that the body of Christ may be built up..." Eph. 4:11-12

"Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. Your attitude should be the same as that of Jesus Christ...who took on the very nature of a servant..." Phil. 2:3-4,7

4. I WILL SUPPORT THE TESTIMONY OF MY CHURCH

...By attending faithfully

...By living a godly life

...By giving regularly

"Let us not give up the habit of meeting together...but let us encourage one another." Heb. 10:25

"But whatever happens, make sure that your everyday life is worthy of the gospel of Christ." Phil. 1:27 (Ph)

"Each one of you, on the first day of each week, should set aside a specific sum of money in proportion to what you have earned and use it for the offering." 1 Cor. 16:2

"A tenth of all your produce is the Lord's, and it is holy." Lev. 27:30

Warren is pastor of Saddleback Valley Community Church, Lake Forest, Calif.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Linda64:
When I joined my local IFB church, I was not required to "sign" on the dotted line. Most Baptist churches have Articles of Faith and Church By-Laws--not covenants of the kind which Rick Warren and the Seeker Sensitive/PDL Churches require one to sign.

Perhaps you are not old enough to know that many many Baptist churches had a covenant which members signed.

 

[rsr]

Linda, I read the whole thing. The specific things you referenced, I have already addressed. Paul is just wrong if he thinks covenanting is (or was) not in the mainstream of Baptist life, though I admit it is not so prevalent as it was a century or a half-century ago.

A number of years ago, I had a Free Will Baptist friend who agonized over whether he was violating the church covenant by working in a supermarket that sold beer.

(His church had adopted the standard Baptist covenant drawn up by J. Newton Brown — who also was the father of the 1833 New Hampshire Confession that was and is still in widespread usage and was the foundation of the Baptist Faith and Message — in the mid-19th century and widely adopted by Baptist churches. His church's covenant, of course, included a "prohibition" section because of Baptists' later endorsement of tee-totaling.)

As John Piper said, "One way to look at it is that a church without a covenant is like a marriage without vows. Marriage vows are not spelled out in the Bible just like church covenants aren't. Both follow necessarily from the nature of the relationships."

[ January 15, 2006, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]

 

[Linda64]

Perhaps you are not old enough to know that many many Baptist churches had a covenant which members signed.

Perhaps you are making an assumption.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I readily admit that I haven't read all 17 pages, so please forgive me if this point has already been discussed. In light of what the Bible says here:

11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.

Romans 3:11

Is the very idea of a seeker even Biblical, let alone the idea of being seeker sensitive? If the Bible says that nobody seeks God, and Warren encourages us to appeal to seekers, number one: what are they seeking and number two, what exactly are we appealing to? I look forward to your thoughts and comments.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Linda64]

After searching the internet for information on Baptists signing covenants for membership and coming up empty, I am convinced that there are very few Biblical Bereans who will search the Scriptures ---discerning whether or not a person is teaching or preaching according to God's truth/the Bible.

So, therefore, you folks can go to your "seeker sensitive/PDL churches and keep on praising Rick Warren and all his disciples--I'll stick with Acts 17:11.

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11)

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Linda64:
After searching the internet for information on Baptists signing covenants for membership and coming up empty, I am convinced that there are very few Biblical Bereans who will search the Scriptures ---discerning whether or not a person is teaching or preaching according to God's truth/the Bible.

Wasn't but just a few years ago that I pastored a SBS church which had a covenant until just a few years ago.

 

[Linda64]

Rick Warren on Fundamentalism

Warren's loosey-goosey approach to history comes out in his comments on fundamentalism.

Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be "one of the big enemies of the 21st century."

"Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism - they're all motivated by fear. Fear of each other."

http://jollyblogger.typepad.com/jollyblogger/2006/01/rick_warrne_on_.html

Even if I can't find any information on signing covenants for membership in Baptist churches, there is PLENTY of information on Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven Life/Seeker Sensitive ideology. The above quote is just a very small sample of what I have found. The church needs to wake up!!

 

[gb93433]

Luke 1:72 (KJS) To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Acts 7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.
Roma 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Gala 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Gala 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Hebr 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebr 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Hebr 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Hebr 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hebr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Hebr 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

http://www.ourchurch.com/view/?pageID=83945

http://www.mt-pisgah.org/church_covenant.htm

http://www.bbc-cortland.org/faith-covenant.php

http://www.ls.net/~newriver/va/scbcovenant.htm

http://www.sdirect.com/firstprovidence/covenant/

http://www.sbcministries.org/

http://www.fbclafayette.org/believe/covenant.htm

http://www.fbcgso.org/covenant.html

http://covenantpbc-covenant.blogspot.com/

http://www.digitalbristol.org/members/wotbc/covenant.htm

http://www.firstbaptistchurchofboston.org/Church_Covenant/Covenant.htm

http://www.krbc.org/covenant.html

http://www.memorialbaptistchurch.org/resources/churchcovenant.html

http://www.yrekabaptistchurch.com/vsItemDisplay.dsp&objectID=794CB759-35D8-4DFC-B7FDEE2DDB6D6FBC&method=display

http://www.northjacksonville.org/what_we_believe/church_covenant.html

http://zionpbc.org/covenant.html

http://www.cowetabaptistchurch.org/covenant.htm

 

[rsr]

Originally posted by Linda64:
After searching the internet for information on Baptists signing covenants for membership and coming up empty, I am convinced that there are very few Biblical Bereans who will search the Scriptures ---discerning whether or not a person is teaching or preaching according to God's truth/the Bible.

Nice jab. However, the fact that you couldn't do a Google search and find exactly what you want is no indication of the veracity of my statements.

I have already referred to Brown's Church Manual.

We believe that a visible Church of Christ is a congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the ordinances of Christ; governed by his laws, and exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by his Word; that its only scriptural officers are Bishops, or Pastors, and Deacons, whose qualifications, claims, and duties are defined in the Epistles to Timothy and Titus.

I also would refer you to J.M Pendleton's Church Manual, 1867:

And as churches in all ages must be formed after the apostolic model, it follows that where penitent, regenerate, baptized believers in Christ are found, there are scriptural materials for a church. Such persons having first given themselves to the Lord, and then to one another, in solemn covenant, agreeing to make the will of Christ as expressed in his word their rule of action, are, in the New Testament sense of the term, a church.

Or the Baptist Bible Union of America (1923):

We believe that a church of Christ is a congregation of baptized believers (a) associated by a covenant of faith and fellowship of the gospel; (b) observing the ordinances of Christ; (c) governed by His laws; and (d) exercising the gifts, rights and privileges invested in them by His word; (e) that its officers of ordination are pastors, elders and deacons, whose qualifications, claims and duties are clearly defined in the Scriptures; (f) we believe the true mission of the church is found in the great commission: First, to make individual disciples; Second, to build up the church; Third, to teach and instruct, as He has commanded. We do not believe in the reversal of this order; (g) we hold that the local church has the absolute right of self government, free from the interference of any hierarchy of individuals or organizations; and that the one and only superintendent is Christ, through the Holy Spirit; (h) that it is scriptural for true churches to cooperate with each other in contending for the faith and for the furtherance of the gospel; that every church is the sole and only judge of the measure and method of its cooperation; (i) on all matters of membership, of polity, of government, of discipline, of benevolence, the will of the local church is final.

Or the 1925 Baptist Faith and Message:

A church of Christ is a congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the ordinances of Christ, governed by his laws, and exercising the gifts, rights and privileges invested in them by his word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth. Its Scriptural officers are bishops or elders and deacons.

Or Eleazer Savage's Manual of Church Discipline,(1800):

The Church Covenant contains a rich and beautiful summary of Christian duties; and contemplates the formation of every member to the highest excellence and loveliness of character. Every member, upon joining the Church, and signing this instrument, pledges himself to the performance of something like the following duties: 1. To control his temper; not to cherish revengeful anger. 2. To watch his conversation; avoiding jesting, evil speaking, and profanity. 3. To take heed to his company; not to associate with tavern-haunters, and the like men. 4. To study a peaceful, quiet, orderly deportment, at home and abroad, in the church and in the family. 5. To be just in all his pecuniary transactions with his fellow-men. 6. To be useful; to do good to all men. 7. To "remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy." 8. To maintain family worship. 9. To watch over his fellow-members for good. And, 10. To attend the meetings of the Church, for preaching, prayer, observance of the ordinances, and business.

Now, a failure to redeem all or any of these pledges, may be called, Covenant-breaking; and should be corrected as a public offence, except the failure injure some fellow member, in which case it would be a personal one.

Or maybe the Summary of Church Discipline published by the Charleston Association (1774):

With regard to the manner of constituting a church, it must be by the consent and desire of the parties concerned; and it will be expedient to call in a minister or ministers, if to be had, to assist on that important occasion. The parties being met fasting, the solemnity ought to be opened by fervent prayer to God ... ; next a sermon suitable to the occasion should be preached; and then, for the mutual satisfaction of every individual, a strict inquiry should be made into their experience of a work of grace on their hearts, their soundness in the doctrines of faith and the goodness of their lives and conversation; unless, as members of churches, they come honorably recommended for that purpose. Being thus satisfied with each other’s graces and qualifications, and united in the bond of love they should give up themselves to the Lord and to one another by the will of God, ... by subscribing a written covenant consistent with the Word of God, ... thereby binding and obliging themselves to be the Lord’s, to walk in all his commands and ordinances, and in all respects to behave towards each other as brethren, agreeable to the spiritual relation they now enter into.

The Free National Association of Will Baptists:

Church Covenant

Having given ourselves to God, by faith in Christ, and adopted the Word of God as our rule of faith and practice, we now give ourselves to one another by the will of God in this solemn covenant.

We promise, by His grace, to love and obey Him in all things, to avoid all appearance of evil, to abstain from all sinful amusements and unholy conformity to the world, from all sanction of the use and sale of intoxicating beverages, and to "provide things honest in the sight of all men."

We agree faithfully to discharge our obligations in reference to the study of the Scriptures, secret prayer, family devotions, and social worship; and by self-denial, faith, and good works endeavor to "grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

We will not forsake the assembling of ourselves together for church conferences, public worship, and the observance of the ordinances of the Gospel; nor fail to pay according to our ability for the support of the church, of its poor, and all its benevolent work.

We agree to accept Christian admonition and reproof with meekness, and to watch over one another in love, endeavoring to "keep the unity of the Spirit" in the bonds of peace, to be careful of one another's happiness and reputation, and seek to strengthen the weak, encourage the afflicted, admonish the erring, and as far as we are able, promote the success of the church and of the Gospel.

We will everywhere hold Christian principle sacred and Christian obligations and enterprises supreme; counting it our chief business in life to extend the influence of Christ in society, constantly praying and toiling that the kingdom of God may come, and His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

To this end we agree to labor for the promotion of educational and denominational enterprises, the support of missions, the success of Sunday schools, and evangelistic efforts for the salvation of the world. And may the God of peace sanctify us wholly, and preserve us blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Or maybe the Baptists in Shropshire, England:

In the early days of Baptist life in Wales and, to a lesser extent in England, Baptists expressed their relationship to each other by means of a church covenant. The concept of a church covenant arose first among the English Separatists. A Separatist congregation was formed at Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, on the basis of a church covenant in 1606. Writing at a later date William Bradford wrote about the Gainsborough church:
As the Lord's free people they joined themselves together by a covenant of the Lord into a church state, in the fellowship of the gospel to walk in all His ways, made known or to be made known unto them, according to their best endeavours whatever it should cost them, the Lord assisting them.

The fundamental nature of a church covenant is illustrated by that adopted by the church at Hawkshead Hill in the Lake District in June 1678:
First giving ourselves to the Lord and one another according to the will of God, promising by the help of divine Grace to walk as becometh Saints in the order of the Gospel.

http://www.shropshirebaptist.org.uk/history1-a.htm

Maybe the Carthage, Ill., Primitive Baptist Church:

Forasmuch as Almighty God, by His grace, has been pleased to call us out of darkness into His light, and having been baptized upon profession of our faith in Christ Jesus, and having given ourselves to the Lord and to one another, in a gospel church way, to be governed and guided by a proper discipline agreeable to the word of God, we do, therefore, in the name of the Lord Jesus and by His assistance, covenant and agree to keep up the discipline of the church of which we are members in sincere and brotherly affection toward one another, to pray for one another, to watch over one another, and if need be, in the most tender and affectionate manner to reprove one another. We also agree, with God's assistance, to attend our church meetings, to observe the Lord's Day, and not to absent ourselves from the Communion of the Lord's Supper without a lawful excuse; to be ready to communicate to the defraying of the church's expenses, and for the support of the ministry, and of the poor; and to continue steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship.

(There are many, many church covenants; I give the former one to show that the practice applies to diverse groups of Baptists.)

How about the First Baptist Church of Boston?

As we trust we have been brought by divine grace to embrace the Lord Jesus Christ, and by the influence of His Holy Spirit to give ourselves up to Him, so do we now solemnly covenant with each other, as God shall enable us, to walk together in Christian love, to exercise a Christian care and watchfulness over each other; not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, nor omit the great duty of prayer, both for ourselves and for others; to participate in each other's joys, and endeavor with tenderness and sympathy to bear each other's burdens and sorrows; to seek divine aid to enable us to walk circumspectly and watchfully in the world; to strive together for the support of a faithful evangelical ministry among us; to contribute, according to our ability, to the financial support of this church and to its benevolences; and, through life, to seek to live to the glory of Him who has called us out of darkness into his marvelous light.

WHAT IS A COVENANT? A covenant is a binding and solemn agreement between two or more individuals to do or to keep from doing specific things. The First Baptist Church of Boston, like most Baptist churches, is organized on the basis of a covenant. That is, those who become members of this congregation voluntarily commit themselves to the agreements made in the covenant. While other Christian churches find their common life in shared beliefs (The Creed), Baptists find their common life in a set of agreements (The Covenant).

The fact that you couldn't find something or it has not been your experience does not make your church's position normative or regulative. Baptists have a long history of making covenants, and the fact you are not aware of it doesn't make it not so. Frankly, a covenant is a particularly Baptist conception.

[ January 15, 2006, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]

 

[Linda64]

gb:

I went throug all those sites--there were no Independent Fundamental Baptist churches listed. They were mostly Primitive Baptist and Southern Baptist. IFB churches have Articles of Faith, and By-Laws. Here are some sites for you to look at.

http://www.bible-truth.org/fundbapt.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Baptist

http://newtestamentbaptistchurchtucson.org/ntbc/about/articles_of_faith.php

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/index.html

rsr:

It's gonna take me a year to finish reading that long post!!

 

[Linda64]

I finally did find one IFB church with a covenant--so far--but nothing in there about signing anything.

http://www.iolabaptisttemple.org/covenant.htm

 

[rsr]

IFB covenants:

http://www.iolabaptisttemple.org/covenant.htm

http://www.northsidebaptist.on.ca/beliefs.htm

http://www.newfieldbaptist.org/doctrine/covenant.htm

http://www.cornerstonenewmarket.org/covenant.htm

http://www.tbaptist.com/aab/cof.htm

http://libertybaptist-ct.org/covenant.htm

http://members.tripod.com/%7EThomasCassidy/covenant.html

Notice how many are derivatives of Brown's covenant ...

And whether you sign or not, you must agree.

 

[rsr]

Originally posted by Linda64:
It's gonna take me a year to finish reading that long post!!

Sorry to be so prolix, but the evidence is overwhelming and I thought it should be presented.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I readily admit that I haven't read all 17 pages, so please forgive me if this point has already been discussed. In light of what the Bible says here:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> 11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.

Romans 3:11

Is the very idea of a seeker even Biblical, let alone the idea of being seeker sensitive? If the Bible says that nobody seeks God, and Warren encourages us to appeal to seekers, number one: what are they seeking and number two, what exactly are we appealing to? I look forward to your thoughts and comments.

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]Back on topic, how about whether or not seeker sensitive, or even the idea of seekers is Biblical or not?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Linda64]

The Seeker Sensitive ideology of Rick Warren and Bill Hybels is not Biblical, no matter how you cut it. It is more of a "marketing" scheme than an "outreach" to the lost.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Linda64:
The Seeker Sensitive ideology of Rick Warren and Bill Hybels is not Biblical, no matter how you cut it.

So you would serve pork to a Jew and beef to a Hindu?

1 Cor. 9:20-23, "To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it."

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

gb,

In light of the Scripture I quoted above, would you say that the there is a such thing as a seeker as far as the Bible is concerned? Is the idea Biblical?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Linda64]

So you would serve pork to a Jew and beef to a Hindu?

Serving pork to a Jew and beef to a Hindu has nothing to do with the Seeker Sensitive ideology. Rick Warren and Bill Hybels are not "seeking" out the lost--they are doing a "marketing" program for the "unchurched"--finding out what people (the unchurched) are "seeking" in a church. Nine times out of ten, these people are not "seeking" to hear the Gospel. It is a marketing plan to find out how to please the "flesh". Pleasing the "flesh" is not what church is all about--but preaching the gospel is.

Instead of "seeking" to find out what people want in a church, the pastor needs to be preaching the Gospel, feeding the sheep, and equipping them to go out and witness to the lost. When we witness to the lost, the Holy Spirit will convict them and give them a hunger to hear God's Word preached. It is the work of the Holy Spirit, not some worldly marketing scheme which brings the "true seeker" of God into church. Church is not a social club--and we should not lead a person in that direction for the purpose of simply "going to church". The purpose of the church is outlined in Ephesians 4:11-15:

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (Ephesians 4:11)

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (Ephesians 4:12)

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Ephesians 4:13)

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (Ephesians 4:14)

But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: (Ephesians 4:15)