"...shalt surely die."

I'll look at it a little closer. Not definitive at any rate. At first reading, it probably refers to the children of Israel returning from exile.

Not even close to the doctrine you say it supports.

Your words, not mine. Truth is truth, even if you don't like the implicactions.

I am trying to see David's understanding of God's motives in accordance with his son. Not that his son was innocent (since David himself testifies of being conceived in sin) but that God is a God of great mercy and compassion (which David often testifies to).

There are none innocent (Roms 3)

Martin Luther said this about the salvation of infants (I believe it was he). Since salvation is a complete work of God through the power of Holy Spirit, then infants can be saved the same way everyone else is. They may not be able to respond in such a way that we understand, but in a way that God understands.

That being said, I know scripture testifies of God as being full of mercy and compassion. I don't have to go any further than that. Since scripture is almost completely silent on the issue, I am content to stick with scripture.

Scripture testifies that those with a sin nature are under the wrath of God. It also teaches we are conceived in sin. No vagaries of men, there. Just scripture.

peace to youraying:

 

If these infants do no sin, then Jesus is not the Way for anyone of them...right?

I think I am beginning to follow your reasoning now...

Or is Jesus the only Way? And if so, how does He reconcile one who is yet to be unreconciled?

bro. Dallas:wavey:

 

The whole planet is under the curse of sin...but not guilty of actually commiting sin. Animals don't sin, and they still die. Plants don't sin, and they die. All of creation is under the curse of sin.

 

But we are not plants and animals. We human beings, created in the image of God. And God did curse the snake and the ground in Gen., but the word "curse" is not used in reference to mankind. We certainly suffer the consequences of sin, but I don't see that God has "cursed" us.

The sin of Adam must be, in someway, passed on to all people. It seems scripture testifies it is through the sin nature.

peace to youraying:

 

You have misunderstood me and have misrepresented me. I have not claimed infants are innocent. I have not stated I was "confident" that God saves infants who die. I said there is very little scriptural support for the doctrine. The one exception is the 2 Samuel passage we have discussed.

The most I am willing to say is, if indeed God saves infants who die, it is because of His great mercy, not because they were "innocent" as you have stated.

There is only one passage of scripture, that I can find, that addresses this issue, and that one is not specific. We have discussed it. You see David declaring his son "innocent" even though he testifies people are conceived in sin. I see David hoping in the great mercy and compassion of God, which David testifies to with great frequency.

I'll let others decide who is distorting scripture here.

As far as adults who die without Christ, scripture is very clear they are lost.

Again, you are making great assumptions on the text of scripture that just is not there. Jesus does not say "such are the kingdom of heaven" because they are "just" based on "innocence". Those words are not in the text. Jesus is speaking of the humility and total dependence of children.

The "doctrines of men' are the doctrines of Jesus and Paul and Peter and James and all the rest of the apostles. And you haven't cited any that contradict them. When I demonstrate to you, beyond question, that you are teaching doctrine contrary to what these men produced under inspiration of Holy Spirit, you simply move on to the next distortion of scripture according to your own understanding.

I believe the clear words of God's Holy Word. I cannot stand on anything else. You have consistently distorted that meaning. Nearly all of what you have taught here is doctrine of your own imagination. And even though you think your under the inspiration of Holy Spirit when you say it, the fact that your doctrine is contrary to Holy Scripture proves that you are not.

peace to you.raying:

 

I agree the sin nature of Adam is passed on to all men, but not Adam's guilt. Physical death is indeed the result of God's curse to all creation (it is appointed unto man once to die).

 

The sin nature causes us to be under the wrath of God. If the "guilt" associated with sin (part of having a sin nature) doesn't cause us to be under the wrath of God, then what does?

And if it is "appointed once for man to die" (and it is), then who is making the appointment?

peace to youraying:

 

Excellent observation:thumbs:

still death entered by sin. Adam's sin. Not mine, not yours, nor anyone elses. Thus we are under the condemnation of death because of Adam's sin. We are both physically and spirtually separated from God because of Adam's sin.

bro. Dallas:wavey:

 

Dear Skypair,
I disagree with anything that says God chose anyone based upon His foreknowledge, this includes infants.

Just fyi, here is what I believe in relation to the TULIP:

Total Depravity---yes
Unconditional Election---yes
Limited Atonement---no
Irrisistable Grace---yes
Perseverance of the saints---no

thus, I am not Calvinists, I also do not believe in three-pointers:smilewinkgrin:
unless of course 'Calvin' was only a three pointer

I believe the Limited Atonement is really Particular Redemption

I believe the saints do not, cannot persevere, but truly are preserved by Grace.


May God Bless,
bro. Dallas:wavey:

 

Death entered by sin, but to be judged for sin, we are guilty of our own sin, not Adam's. We die spiritually when we die, as Paul points out in Romans 6.

 

Please provide a quote where ANY Calvinist said this. Either provide the quote, or admit that you have falsely represented what Calvinists believe or say. Wilful misrepresentation is false witness. A false witness is a liar. Certainly you are not a liar are you sky?

 

Well , RB , the evidence is conclusive . SP has repeatedly , without any remorse , lied about what Calvinists believe . Never once have I seen him utter an "I'm sorry." . SP does not specialize in documenting what he makes up on the fly about us . His specialty is confusion and deliberate distortion . Non-Cals have no ally in this individual .

But I will join in and ask ( probably in vain ) of SP : Where has any Calvinist here said that people are "elect from birth" ?

 

Salvation

I don't see calvinist saying that those who believe are elected from birth, but before they were even born, before the foundation of the world.

I see this also, but God had not elected individuals after the cross before the foundation of the world, but He elected children that He foreknew before the foundation of the world children that do not lean on thier own understanding but trust in the name of the Lord.

God said Himself that He will keep not they will keep but He will keep those who are meek and humble who trust in the name of the Lord.

Of coarse they were chosen before the foundation of the world. God wouldn't be God if He didn't know who they were going to be.

 

You have said several times that God only saves the meek and the humble, but I don't see this at all in the salvation of Paul for example. He was anything BUT meek and humble when Christ blinded him on the road to Damascus. He only became meek and humble after he was saved. Unbelievers are not humble. They are consumed with self. It takes the work of the Holy Spirit to change our hearts to have the ability to see our sin and humble ourselves before God.

 

God word

It is God word that humbles us. Without His word we will never be humbled.

He himself said that he himself would be disquilified from the prize.

The goal of the race is the salvation of our soul

So this goes and shows us the whole truth that men even deny scripture.

It will be those who endure to the end that will be saved.

Romans 11:
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

 

No, it is the conviction and the work of the Holy Spirit that humbles us. I know plenty of people who have read God's word and are still unbelievers. We cannot even comprehend the depth of God's word until the Holy Spirit gives us life and the ability to comprehend.

 

Spirit

Jesus words our Spirit and they are life.

Through His word we are convicted by the Holy Spirit

So many people read the scripture not as a child and cannot understand.

Why?

because God has hidden the truth from the wise and learned and revealed it to little children.